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Wiley
thanks for your comment. Actually, I think Ahmadinejad and Islamo-fascism is more dangerous than Hitler's fascism was. But while it's possible that we will make an attempt to take out his nukes, there won't be an all-out war as there was against Germany...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 19, 2006 at 4:16 AM
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Nautikos
I came I read and it really isn't a subject that I can comment on much.
Frankly, I think things are going to work out very, very differently than we can imagine at the moment.
Seems to me Hitler is alive again and running Iran. He's just as stupid and evil, as he was the first time around.
But this time his country will be turned into a glass house by Israel or the U.S. , while the rest of us wring our hands and wait for the last act as we talk simply of global warming or something else we can't do anything about.
posted by
WileyJohn
on December 17, 2006 at 5:59 PM
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Pat B
thanks! I appreciate that, I really do...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 14, 2006 at 3:30 PM
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Joe is right. Excellent blog.
Part V is the clearest explanation I've read about the situation in Europe. Ordinarily when I see a blog as long as yours I skim and skip parts of it, then go back if comments direct me to something I missed. But this one I read straight through. Thank you! As Arnold says, I'll be back! :)pat
posted by
Pat_B
on December 13, 2006 at 4:52 AM
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Joe Love,
I appreciate that! Thanks!
posted by
Nautikos
on December 12, 2006 at 7:59 PM
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Nautikos issued award for Excellence in Opinion
posted by
Joe_Love
on December 12, 2006 at 6:53 PM
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Joe Love,
thanks for dropping in again! The next instalment will come soon, though not today. I haven't even looked at it since I am busy as hell with 'real' work, and today I also have an appointment with the DS and even with the damn surgeon, all of which will be eating a big whole into my day.
And if you want to know what that is all about, you can go to my other blog at http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/Nautikos6191/421842 for a start and read about it...It all dates back to the accident which is discussed in even earlier posts...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 12, 2006 at 6:10 AM
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Nautikos
You still working on the next installment?? Guess I don't blame you if you're just sitting on it. After all the work it must take to construct your well-developed essays, I would want to allow everybody an opportunity to read them, too.
Look forward to reading it.
posted by
Joe_Love
on December 12, 2006 at 5:07 AM
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LeRoy (ctd)
[whoops] the other hand, while I see massive riots, bombings and all kinds of mayhem down the road, I don't see a European 'civil war', but I could be wrong, of course...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 11, 2006 at 6:33 AM
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LeRoy
thanks for your comment. I agree with you that the Muslims have been anything but 'sloppy' in committing genocide! I give you an even more recent, ongoing example: Darfur!
On
posted by
Nautikos
on December 11, 2006 at 6:26 AM
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Joe Love,
I think I'll call you Joe (Hawkeye) Love! LOL!!! Your eyes certainly did not deceive you! I wrote the damn thing last night, posted it, and then found it was all over the place, i.e. it wasn't sitting where it is supposed to sit, but you had to scroll sideways to read it, at least on my screen! I deleted it and posted it again - same story. Each time it was on for maybe a minute! So I thought to hell with it, I'll do it tomorrow.
Well, 'tomorrow' has arrived, and in the meantime the inevitable happened - major 'second thoughts' that will lead to revisions. Except of course it's Monday, and I also have 'real' work to do, so I don't know if I'll get it done today...
The funny thing is that, when I fiddled with it last night, I was hoping that no one would spot it and then wonder why it disappeared, and then I thought, naaahh, with my few readers...But sure enough, Joe (Hawkeye) Love did...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 11, 2006 at 6:19 AM
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Naut
This is one of your most outstanding posts. I believe Steyn said that preventing the adoption of the welfare state in the U.S. is a national security issue, and I think so too. I reject the "Muslims are sloppy at genocide" argument, by the way. There was never an accounting for the Armenians slaughtered by the Turks, there was for the Nazi Germans. If there is no accounting then the genocide was successful, that's for sure. The reason the Left in America are opposed to our withdrawing troops from Europe is that they want to take the wrong side in the coming Euro-civil war. And it is almost inevitable now. It will probably be a super-sized version of the Lebanese Civil War of the seventies and eighties, which happened almost as soon as the Muslims outnumbered the Christians in that once most-advanced Middle-Eastern nation.
posted by
LeRoyCoyote
on December 10, 2006 at 10:21 PM
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Nautikos
Am I wrong in assuming that I had seen part 6 posted earlier tonight?? If so, where did it go?? Maybe I was just seeing things.
posted by
Joe_Love
on December 10, 2006 at 7:34 PM
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Corbin
I took a look, and it certainly is an interesting view. I'm sure he's right in that there will be some reaction at some point, but I don't think it will be as drastic as he suggests.
There are of course people who won't shy away from violence, but this is not Europe in the '30's, I'm sure they will be suppressed...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 10, 2006 at 7:00 PM
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Naut....some think there may be hope...in a warped sort of way.....
Check out Ralph Peters article....entitled
The ‘Eurabia’ Myth: Muslims Take Over Europe? Sorry, There’s No Chance.
Peters’ argument is that Muslim immigrants will never be able to conquer Europe because the Europeans are “world-champion haters” who will never let “impoverished Muslim immigrants” take over their societies..........
Peters asserts, the “continent that perfected genocide and ethnic cleansing” will “over-react with stunning ferocity.”
Europeans, Peters claims..........“are just better [than Muslims] at the extermination process. It’s the difference between the messy Turkish execution of the Armenian genocide and the industrial efficiency of the Holocaust. Hey, when you love your work, you get good at it.”
“Europe’s Muslims will be lucky just to be deported,” Peters says. Fortunately for these Muslims, however, Peters is more than willing to deploy the U.S. Army in Europe “to guarantee the safe evacuation of Europe’s Muslims.”
I doubt if Peters will be doing a book signing tour in Europe any time soon.......LOL
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on December 10, 2006 at 2:46 PM
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strat
Thanks!
posted by
Nautikos
on December 10, 2006 at 9:20 AM
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passionflower
thanks for dropping in. No, I did not go into politics. The closest I once came was when, on the spur of the moment, I decided to run for the school board, prompted by some really abject stupidities on the part of some of the incumbent board members.
But the next morning I slapped myself upside the head for my own stupidity, because I was extremely busy and really had no time for all that nonsense, so I didn't really 'run'. But I was on the ballot, and just barely managed to avoid being elected...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 10, 2006 at 9:19 AM
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Corbin,
an interesting question! My short and necessarily somewhat 'simplified' answer is this: if the radical, fundamentalist strain of Islam, i.e. Wahabbism, changes as a result of greater contact with the West, and/or as the result of countervailing pressures from more moderate strains of Islam, Europe has a chance, in the long run. In the short run I am a pessimist...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 10, 2006 at 9:10 AM
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Well done, Naut!
posted by
strat
on December 9, 2006 at 8:44 PM
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This is pretty good...thought provoking...
I hope you DID finally go into politics.
posted by
Passionflower
on December 9, 2006 at 7:03 PM
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Naut......
One of the real pressing questions is going to be.....Is Europe up to the task? There are several suggestions that the Catholic Church and other Denominations in Europe should revive a European missionary movement....going after the Muslim immigrants themselves...but the death to converts thing would be a formidable obstacle to this task.
The other possibility is the economic collapse of a Germany or France.....that would force a re-appraisal of their systems......but this slide is coming sooner rather than later and it will happen just like the rise of the Fascists in the 20's and 30's. Only this time we better be prepared not to waste time looking the other way.....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on December 9, 2006 at 5:57 PM
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Joe Love
thanks for reading! I'm especially thankful to you for telling me that you find it easy to read! It's the kind of topic where one is constantly in danger of becoming totally boring...which it apparently is to a lot of people anyway!
But I'm not the 'Champion of Lost Causes' for nothing, and I shall soldier on to the end, which is in sight...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 9, 2006 at 5:46 PM
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kingmi
thanks for your comment. I think we have a slightly different view of the 'subtle Islamic influx' (?), though, .
And I, like most people, have no problem with immigration form Mexico. What I have a problem with is ILLEGAL immigration, which is coming into this country as well!
I can't imagine that you would be in favor of illegal immigration!
posted by
Nautikos
on December 9, 2006 at 5:34 PM
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Again, Nautikos
I enjoyed your blog. While you're tackling a serious subject, you make it easy to read because of not attempting to talk above your readers. Example given: Trampling on somebody else's flower. Very effective in driving home your point. Furthermore, it keeps your subject from being stagnate and mundane.
Very intriguing style you're using here, and very much appreciated. I look forward to more.
Joe
posted by
Joe_Love
on December 9, 2006 at 12:23 PM
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Nautikos, thanks for stopping. I think it is a devolution of cultural norm
In EU, acted out in slo-mo. Just think how lucky we are to host hard-working, nonviolent Christian Mexicans as our immigrant nation!
EU will surely better manage this subtle islamic influx, as a coop continent, than they did in the middle ages, as feudalists. Perhaps the competitive merchandizing of conservative Swedish laws surrounding beer sales & adverts, will in later decades be seen as practice for the certain global issues of an inexorable Islamic revolt from within. It is happening, and can be seen in local anti-semitism and racist attitudes toward algerians and other minorities.
Thought provoking as usual.
posted by
kingmi
on December 9, 2006 at 8:46 AM
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Corbin
you'd better comment more...you started all this....
posted by
Nautikos
on December 9, 2006 at 4:30 AM
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Naut......
Are you a college professor? You would have one hell of a class......I am not at full function right now, but I will comment more after a recharge........
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on December 8, 2006 at 5:24 PM
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TAPS
you're absolutely right when you say that that my notion of 'the tyranny of unintended consequences' applies in all areas of life. One can minimize it, but never eliminate it completely.
When engaged in statecraft, one requires a good knowledge and understanding of history. (Unfortunately, many Americans and Canadians don't know or understand history, and don't even think it's worth knowing.)
But even in one's daily life this becomes an issue, and it is always useful to think of the wider implications of one's actions.
posted by
Nautikos
on December 8, 2006 at 4:21 PM
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Jane
thanks for commenting! It's not a pretty situation. And there's more to come...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 8, 2006 at 4:12 PM
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OFFBEATS
Thanks for your comment, and, as I promised, here is your serious answer. Yes, I agree that the situation is dangerous, but not in the sense that someone is going to attack Europe and rape and pillage her. Anyone who tried that (and I can’t imagine who) would get a very bloody nose indeed. It’s far more insidious than that. It isn’t miliary weakness that is at the heart of Europe ’s problem, it’s Europe ’s lack of inner strenght that is slowly leading to an erosion of her culture, and to the emergence of something that is fundamentally alien to her, and to us. Of course, there are those forces in Europe who will resist, and we will see situations that won’t be pretty. Not in five years, not in ten, maybe not in our lifetime, but they will occur.
You say that Europeans need to wake up, and you’re right. But they haven’t so far, and I don’t see why they will in the foreseeable future. Unfortunately, things don’t happen just because they should happen!
posted by
Nautikos
on December 8, 2006 at 4:09 PM
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Naut, this is fantastic and also frightening!
I see I have some catching up to do with the previous posts on this subject.
Imagine if HIllary is elected -- EU is what she wants for the US, which is a very frightening notion.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on December 8, 2006 at 1:00 PM
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Thanks so much, Nautikos. I'm afraid that what you say here,
"the ‘tyranny of unintended consequences’ enters the picture, and these consequences soon began to make themselves felt in various ways. Once the beast was created, it began to grow and began to obey it’s own dynamics. And this is also where the ‘denial’ syndrome comes in", is true also in other areas of life. For example, it is one reason that I shun religious coalitions.
posted by
TAPS.
on December 8, 2006 at 12:41 PM
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OFFBEATS,
you also deserve a longer answer than this one, and you will get it! It's just that right now reality is infringing and I am forced to do a little work...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 8, 2006 at 12:22 PM
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TAPS
thanks for your comment and your question, which deserves a serious answer!
I think there are many people ‘in denial’ now, but initially that wasn’t the problem. Those most responsible for advancing the vision of a United Europe, Chirac and Kohl and their advisers, were not stupid and had the best of intentions. Among other things, they had in mind to lay to rest forever the ongoing conflicts between France and Germany, which predate the two WW’s by many centuries. (Remember Napoleon, for example?)
For France, Germany was still a threat, if only an economic one. (Without nuclear weapons, which have been outlawed by their constitution, militarily Germany neither was, is, nor will be a threat to anyone. Against a real threat from the outside, such as from Iran, for example, Germany has to rely on France, Britain and the US for assistance.)
France also wanted more ‘weight’ in it’s conflict with Britain and the US. In spite of the WW’s, there was and is considerable resentment in France that the anglophone world has surpassed the ‘francophonie’.
For Germany, on the other hand, we have the aforementioned ‘Escape into Europe’, a great psychological reward. Also, being by far the largest economy on the continent, Germans felt their economic future was more secure in a United Europe. A kind of win-win situation for everyone.
But ‘visionaries’ never see the difficulties, and certainly don’t pay attention to the details.
That is where what I call the ‘tyranny of unintended consequences’ enters the picture, and these consequences soon began to make themselves felt in various ways. Once the beast was created, it began to grow and began to obey it’s own dynamics. And this is also where the ‘denial’ syndrome comes in, as exemplified by Monsieur Juncker’s verbal acrobatics.
And the EU is growing; for the smaller, poorer countries it is a definite advantage to belong, since there are goodies flowing down to them from ‘on high’, i.e. mainly from Germany, France and Britain...
And the whole thing is becoming more and more unwieldy as well...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 8, 2006 at 12:18 PM
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Naut
The situation as described is very dangerous. When people have no say in what policies are being implemented yet having to conform to them should be against the law, if there was a law..Was there no Bill of Rights (using as example) for these different countries going into the Euro market to being with? Then you complicate that by social programs that promote apathy and it seems the European continent would be ripe for the pickings of anyone who desired to rape and plunder her. These people need to wake up...(IMHO)...Let's face it when people have no motivation to be productive apathy is a by product...Very scary stuff..
This is just about the best reading on this whole site..Everyone should take a look at it~
posted by
Offy
on December 8, 2006 at 6:49 AM
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Nautikos, I don't understand why they could not see that at least some of this would come about when the were working at promoting the EU. Were they just in denial?
posted by
TAPS.
on December 7, 2006 at 9:08 PM
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