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kingmi, I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from
and not that I'm being ignorant, prejudiced or rude. It's all about the individual person.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 11:50 PM
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SF, Yea,
that's what I meant when I said that explains it. There is a form of defensiveness, us against them mentality, when immigrants pretend to be more ignorant than they reallyare. This can put some Americans on th4e defensive. The answer is to have all of your speels blockedout in pictures and other realia so that you can make yourself understood without resorting to argumentation.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:39 PM
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kingmi, yep. Clients. Clients I have known for at least
9 years, some about 6 or 4, but for YEARS, regardless. I have some that I have definitely known since I worked at my hospital since March of 1996 and to date, STILL cannot speak a lick of English. I also have many clients that I know for a fact can somewhat, or at least for the most part, speak English, but still refuse to do so and will only speak/deal with fluent Spanish speaking people. In fact, a big kicker is that sometimes, they will start out speaking Spanish, receive the answer in Spanish, then respond again in PERFECT ENGLISH!
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 9:36 PM
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Clients? Oh that explains it.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:26 PM
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No, no, kingmi, not the ones I hired...
I'm referring to clients. My employees are very well spoken in English.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 9:24 PM
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Spitfire, I know it is troublesome.
What I try to avoid is the appearance of generalizations. I do not have trouble understanding any of the people I work with. We have families and teachers from Sudan, Vietnam, Mainland China, Bosnia, Mexico, PR etc. One Russian family a few years back. Of course they were all highly motivated to learn. Perhaps the people you work with (are these guys working with you?) have no aspirations for education or self-improvement. If so, they are compensating by finding suckers, and sucker-punching them with their worst efforts at English, and pretending, at your expense.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:18 PM
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kingmi, I posted that last comment before I saw your
newest ones. Yeah, I get it, but I don't get it at the same time. I've never lived in Cuba. I can't honestly say I know what the true reality of it is and I would never claim to do so. That would be wrong. I am thankful I don't know what it's like. That is why I have such a broad spectrum of friends; of many ethnic backrounds. My own boss of 10 years is black and is only 52 years old, but lived during segregation times! Wow. Trippy. But I don't look at people as color, race, ethnicity, size, whatever. I see the person. And, some of the people I see and have seen for many, many years, have still, made no progress, nor do I think they have any intention on making any progress, of learning a smidge of the English language. These are still the ones that get huffy when I can't fully comprehend what they're saying; whether in English, Spanglish, or Spanish. It's tough sometimes, but I don't need to be made to fee stupid or guilty because I can't understand them.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 9:12 PM
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SF, after that length of time, I agree with you. Adjust or go home.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:07 PM
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Wait, kingmi, I just noticed something else in your last comment...
I understand the culture shock. but A.) Adapting the culture shock and new surroundings after a couple years is one thing, I mentioned those who have been here for over a decade whom still refuse to learn even how to say hello in English B.) It is the
same scenario for native born Americans, Canadians, etc. born into poverty, that once they have made their adjustment into any other society, provided they are not dead, in prison, divorced, on drugs, alcoholized, broke, unemployed and pissed off, it's the same thing regardless of how one got there.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 9:05 PM
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SF, Now I think you are seeing the situation as it is.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:05 PM
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SF, You know like you in Cuba?
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:04 PM
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Spitfire. You misunderstood. Those horrid conditions are here!
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 9:02 PM
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I totally hear ya, kingmi, really, I do.
But I must just say that if one is coming from such horrible circumstances, then how can America or any other country be as bad? I would think they would want to adjust and belong in their new home even more. I hear some speaking of their homeland as if they miss it somehow. I'm sure they do in a sense, but if it was as bad as they say, why not be attuned to their new country as a new start and be more willing to adapt and fit in to a new culture? They can still and always keep their own cultures, of course, but just be a bit more appreciative of their new and improved surroundings. We accepted them into our country with open arms, why do a great sum of them not recipricate?
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 8:57 PM
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SF, what you are experiencing is level two of culture shock. When you
first decided to throw in with the communists, you thoughtm hey, it's gonna be Disneyland! Then when you realized that it may in fact be worse than your own home land,then you went into an immediate slump. Emotional dive, mental instagility, loss of memory, disorientation as you are experiencing now.
What remains to be seen is whether you make an immediate recovery, as those in stage two of culture shock do, or whether you, instead, take over a year or two to adjust to your new surroundings. Once you have made that adjustment, provided you are not dead, in prison, divorced, on drugs, alcoholized, broke, unemployed and pissed off -- and you don't care about the Cuban culture or language -- then you can start working on your new language, pronunciation etc. Making it work for you rather than against you.
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 8:40 PM
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kingmi, I'm confused.
I'm not in Cuba (am I?) I could be for all I know right now. No, but seriously, I KNOW what goes on in Cuba. I have Cuban friends and one particular Cuban employee who has told me of such things. Like, for instance, he told me about these people that used to take condoms and t-shirts and somehow doctor them up and sell them as food.
K, but my actual point of this blog was that if anyone (no matter from what country or speaks what language) comes here (or any other country) to live and make a new life, just make a stitch of an effort to learn how to AT LEAST speak your name and/or get through everyday common dialog exchanges. That's all. Oh, wait, one more thing. The only other thing I ask is NOT to get all huffy and frustrated when English speaking Americans, Canadians, whatever, don't understand your language. It's actually common courtesy. I learned to understand Spanish (not even really on purpose, I must admit, and I still have some trouble) but I made more of a conscious effort to learn because of the spanish speaking population in my immediate neighborhood. I see way too many living here for so many years that seem to expect American natives to speak Spanish. And frankly, that's not fair and it's definitely not right.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 8:19 PM
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Spitzie, you are in Cuba now. No rights, no insurance, no school for your
children, no job security, no salary, no minimum wage, no security, no freedom, no friends, no relatives, no love, no laundry soap, no washer/dryer, no food, no beds, no clean sheets, no car, no nice clothes. You OK so far?
posted by
kingmi
on March 19, 2005 at 8:02 PM
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Thank you, HolyG.
A few others (without throwing offense at them) didn't seem to get my point. I don't think they read it in it's entirety, or at least only heard what they wanted to hear from it. Whatever. But no, I agree, I wouldn't live in another country without learning the language and I certainly would never get huffy when I'm not understood by them.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 19, 2005 at 5:17 PM
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I agree with you Spitfire, even though this country was stolen. It's an English-speaking nation
now, and I have no desire to learn Spanish. This is the same reason I would never live in a non English-speaking country. I'd feel at a disadvantage, but I would
never expect them to speak English just to accommodate my dumb American ass!
posted by
Holy_Grail
on March 19, 2005 at 4:22 PM
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saul_relative, I don't think I've ever heard him on the radio,
but I think it's so awesome that those people went on to great careers. And just for the record here, I'm not saying immigrants should be able to speak English fluently, but at least just enough to somewhat communicate...and not to get huffy when they're not understood. Thanks for reading.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 18, 2005 at 6:07 PM
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Way to go, girl.
All excellent points. A friend of mine the other day said that when she immigrated to the United States, she was the only person in her class (here) that spoke English (she is from Trinidad). At all. She says that most of her childhood schoolmates have gone on to not only master the language, but are successful doctors, lawyers, and businesspeople, not a little bit because of their willingness to pick up the local lingo.
Oh, and some of this sounds a bit like Michael Savage's platform. Do you listen to him on public radio at all? Or maybe have read one of his books? Either way, both of you are dead on the money with regards to immigrants and the language barrier, rights, etc.
posted by
saul_relative
on March 18, 2005 at 5:39 PM
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Thanks for checkin it out, Strat!
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 18, 2005 at 3:51 PM
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Amen.
A little effort on everyone's part could conceivably be the grease needed to make the wheels move. But no, that would be too logical. Oh well.
Very well thought out, expressed post. Thanks.
posted by
strat
on March 18, 2005 at 9:01 AM
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fwmystic,
I think (or thought) I did clarify what English I'd appreciate people to speak...if they live in America, how about at LEAST ENOUGH TO SPEAK THEIR NAME AND ADDRESS. Reread the post and you'll clearly see that. I never said this is MY country, meaning I own it. I mean it's my native born country and EVEN I ADAPTED TO another language to accomidate Spanish speaking people since it is a big majority spoken language in my area. If I was willing to learn their language, why don't the ones that have lived here for over a decade even make ONE SINGLE EFFORT to speak A LITTLE English? That was my point.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 17, 2005 at 12:43 PM
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Spitfire - business that adapt to the marketplace survive ...
those that don't file bankruptcy. This isn't YOUR country. It's everyone's. If the people with cold hard cash speak a different language, then if you want to sell to them you adapt. And if their taxes pay for your salary, then you have to adapt to them. And don't think everyone speaking English would solve all your problems. Ever try to understand a redneck southern drawl, or a Noo Yawk accent. Maybe you should clarify which English you would prefer to be communicated in.
posted by
fwmystic
on March 17, 2005 at 7:33 AM
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Spitfire
Of course, I agree with the fact that we should all learn many languages, my point was that we should start with Spanish. Yes you're right that if you went to another country you would learn enough to communicate. I understand more now of what you meant. Maybe the best thing would be for everybody to learn proper english, whether you were born speaking it or not. I have clients that the parents don't speak english because they get the kids to translate for them. I am Not mad at you, I get it now, I apologize for getting upity, it's just a pet peeve of mine and now I realize you weren't even hitting on that.
posted by
ladyofshalott
on March 16, 2005 at 7:04 PM
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One more quick point, LadyofS,
Well, two comments, actually. First, if we should all learn Spanish, then shouldn't we all learn all languages like French, Japanese, Chinese, etc? Cause we're a melting pot country, we have many different immigrants migrating here besides Hispanics or Latins. Secondly, I hope you're not angry with me. You know me enough to believe I'm not a bigot by any means, I hope.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 16, 2005 at 6:56 PM
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LadyofS,
Don't be sorry about your opinion on this. It may seem a bit bigoted, but actually, I'm far from it. I am, however, forced to deal with people that REFUSE to even learn a
few words of English even after being here for many years. I don't think it matters what language the country originally spoke; it is the here and now of at least the last few centuries, which has been predominantly English. I realize that the U.S. is a melting pot. Fine. However, if I moved to Italy, Puerto Rico, France, China, etc. I would learn to at least be able to communicate and if I still had trouble, I certainly wouldn't get huffy and roll my eyes because they don't understand me. The other point I made about removing the veil from a woman's face to photograph her for her driver's license or I.D. is also my point. These are the laws of the country. We would have to follow any other laws of any other country as well (unless of course, we're a diplomate, but I don't wanna get on that soapbox!) Anyway, just note that some of my closest friends are hispanic (a few were born in Puerto Rico, Cuba, and Dominican Republic) and I love them to pieces. Even they agree with the fact that anyone who decides to reside in another country should at the very least, learn simple communication skills...especially after many years.
I did, and this
is my native born country.
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 16, 2005 at 6:52 PM
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Spitfire
I was just wondering exactly whose country it is? Is it yours, all of you who speak english? Or is the Native Americans and Spanairds that were here before english speakers. There is a reason that a lot of names of cities and such are in Spanish. America opened it's doors to immigrants, I happen to be one. So now all of a sudden it isn't so nice. People in Europe speak at least 3 languages, so somewhere you will encounter someone with a common language. Why shouldn't we all have to learn Spanish? Soon we will I'm sure. I'm sorry but that whole post sounded really bigoted.
posted by
ladyofshalott
on March 16, 2005 at 6:38 PM
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Well, thanks, darkeyeddemon.
Glad you can appreciate it!
posted by
SpitFire70
on March 16, 2005 at 6:01 PM
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you know...
i feel the sudden urge to stand and salute. damned well written, i agree completely. :)
posted by
darkeyeddemon
on March 16, 2005 at 5:51 PM
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