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Re: Re: re: Brother Anib
So too is your assessment perfect. I am in total agreement with you, friend.
posted by
anib
on January 13, 2019 at 8:55 PM
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Re: re: Brother Anib
I didn't want you to feel compelled to reply, but I am glad you did! I was hoping you would continue the story of the spitting priest. It is great that he repented, but if he was a more dedicated predator, it could have gone the way I suggested.
Funny you should bring up the Muslim Rohingya problem in Burma. On the plane to Thailand, a very smart and educated lady from Burma sat next to us. I asked her about the Rohingya, and she said it started with large Muslim gangs raiding across the border from Bangladesh. They want to seize territory from Burma. The dictator generals of Burma are having none of that, be they Buddhist or not. But I agree with your assessment, I am just adding a bit.
Concerning Arjuna and Krishna, yes, it usually does take justified violence to stop unjustified violence. The predators or perpetrators have forced us into that necessity, to enforce justice and establish peace.
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 13, 2019 at 4:04 PM
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Re: Brother Anib
You asked me not to reply. But I'll add that the story or the anecdote does not end there, it continues. And then of course, we have to judge any criminal by the gravity of his crime. If something as threatening as a bullet ending up in your chest or a sword dangling upon your head, then one has no other option than meekly to accept the outcome as of a fatalist, but rather stand up, fight, defend, whatever. As you know the recent taking up of arms by the Buddhists to thrash and drive out the Rohingyas from their country, following suit of which the Chinese and Srilankans, Buddhists again, are preparing to rage a war against them. Sadly enough, Mamata Banerjee, the Chief Misister of West Bengal, have extended shelter for them for the sake of votes. It's sure going to backfire. These bloody politicians are, in fact, the bigger criminals than the actual perpetrators. To continue the story of Buddha, the man that spat on him was puzzled, greatly troubled, repented, saw the truth of Buddha's teachings and was so overcome with repentance, grief and all that goes along, that he eventually became a disciple and a monk spreading his message. Buddha is a perfect picture of peace, but Krishna's violence too, is for establishing peace. When Arjuna was in doldrums thinking he will be killing and incurring sin, and overcome with emotions, Krishna told him in no uncertain terms, that it is I who have already killed them for their crimes, and that all you'll be doing is simply becoming My Instument. You will neither kill nor incur any sin, rather you as Kshatriya, the fighter breed, by doing the prescribed duty of your calling, the gates of heaven will be thrown wide and will accept you with open arms, to rule the heavens. Such an opportunity as this battle comes rarely in the life of aKshatriya, so make the most and not let it slip out of your hands.
posted by
anib
on January 12, 2019 at 6:02 AM
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Very thoughtful discussion I will write my response on my blog
Ask a Sufi
posted by
Shams-i-Heartsong
on January 11, 2019 at 2:50 PM
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Brother Anib
I knew you would give me a different perspective, something to ponder. I am impressed that you think Christianity has the highest ideal concerning forgiveness. So maybe I am on the right track there. I do think Jesus is the best example of an enlightened teacher, regardless of being God incarnate or not (and I think he is). But he forgave in all cases, without having feelings of being insulted or offended get in the way. It is an interesting question whether he ever had any feelings of resentment about being insulted or offended.
I agree that an unthinking reaction to an offense is bad, making matters worse, and a thoughtful restrained response is much better.
The story about Buddha is intriguing and instructive. If I ever have someone spit in my face, I will try to remember his cool example. But I am more concerned about greater offenses. What if that Hindu priest had followed Buddha from village to village and harassed him, intimidating the villagers to stay away from Buddha, and rallying other priests against him? I wonder how Buddha would have handled this greater threat? What if they tried to kill him, as they did Jesus? Would he have willingly died before his time? According to legends, Jesus was in India, and the Hindu priests did plot to kill him, and he escaped to return to Israel, otherwise we would have never read about him in the Bible. When it comes to deadly violence, Buddha's response to the spit does not relate. If someone gives us the 'gift' of a bullet heading for our chest, or a sword descending upon our neck, we don't have the option to refuse that 'gift'. It is too late, and we will receive it (or at least our body will). No need to answer that, I am just thinking out loud.
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 11, 2019 at 5:29 AM
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GM
The topic you brought up, i find interesting and for each to reflect on what is it to forgive. Christianity is founded on forgiveness. Perhaps no other religion can match Christian ideals on forgiveness. IMHO, in order to forgive, one has to feel insulted, offended in the first place. And the moment one acknowledges, one becomes a slave. One has given the other the power to rule one, then the other has the power to disturb one's balance, one's peace. So the first precondition is, as far as is possible, not to react, and even if reaction comes unannounced and unawares, it must be made possible to come under wakeful awareness. Then the whole gestalt changes; it is then not a reaction but a response. The difference between reaction and response is that the first is without thought, and the latter is with. But again, this penance is not easy. One has to train oneself though severe mortifications to be in perfect balance, so as not to allow our minds to become unhealthy. It is only after forgiving, and there is that word 'unconditionally', that we can bring the mind to heal. But why let the afflictions, infections attack? Why not develop a strong mental fortress?
Once, Buddha, while passing a village addressing mases, a priest felt threatened that their vocation would one day come to end if people were to listen to him. Nursing an intense hatred for the sage, he spat on Buddha's face. Buddha smiled, knowing fully well why he did so. His disciple, Ananda, in a fit of rage, was about to pound the man. Buddha stopped him, wiped his face, and coolly asked the offender, "what next?" Ananda asked for the meaning of all this, and Buddha counter asked, " tell me if someone gave you a gift and you don't accept, where will it remain?" Ananda understood, we don't. The message simply is, "I cannot forgive you because I have no grudge against you". In this, is included the other three, I feel.
posted by
anib
on January 10, 2019 at 10:06 PM
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Re: RP
....and I forgot to affirm with you, an open mind and open heart are always needed!! Like the saying "the mind is like a parachute: it only works right when it is OPEN". And the results of a closed mind are similar to that of a closed parachute, when one hits the ground. 
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 10, 2019 at 9:25 PM
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RP
I am delighted that you came back!! I was hoping you would. Concerning "forgetting" an offense; when people say 'forgive and forget', I hope that they mean ACTING AS IF they have forgotten the offense, even though it is still firmly in their memory. I am glad you agree that remembering all the circumstances of an offense is essential to learning lessons from it.
As for the other three 'optional' items, we seem to be in agreement as well, that they are not a 'required' part of forgiveness. Full reconciliation would be nice, but it rarely happens, I fear, and it is full of problems. I don't know why condoning and excusing were listed in the articles I researched, anyway. But I must say, when more people get involved in discussing a particular offense or offender, sides are taken, and someone is sure to try to condone or excuse. Or push us in that direction, by invoking "benefit of the doubt".
And when we try to confront the offender about the offense, oh my God, the excuses they can come up with!! ..... or to turn it around and make it OUR fault instead..... so that WE become their excuse. So excusing and condoning are good tactics to be familiar with, to use or to counter, when dealing with issues of forgiveness. 
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 10, 2019 at 9:02 PM
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GM
I've come back to comment a bit about feelings on the last four items you've listed. First, "Forgetting." As you mentioned, to totally forget may mean you forget a lesson the experience has taught you. So, no, completely forgetting makes no sense to me. Second, Reconciliation." In certain cases that is not possible. In cases where it is possible and healthy to do so, perhaps that is a good result of forgiveness. Third, "Condoning." If it was a true offense, not a perceived offense, then why would one condone it? Fourth, "Excusing." Much like Number 3. We even teach our children (hopefully) to take responsibility for their actions or there will be certain consequences, within reason of course, for offenses. We don't justify true misbehavior. However, there are exceptions to all circumstances, and an open mind and open heart is part of the path to forgiveness, I think, and to many other parts of life. Cheers, and enjoy your vacation!
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on January 10, 2019 at 8:03 PM
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Anib
I am on vacation in Thailand, so I have more time to devote to writing. In another week, it is back to the rat race and the grindstone. I look forward to your keen perspective on my offerings here. Cheers
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 10, 2019 at 3:03 PM
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Kabu
Thank you! As I am wont to do, I have just added a paragraph, so now there is more to think on. Sorry about that.....
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 10, 2019 at 3:00 PM
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thinking on this. a lot to think about.
posted by
Kabu
on January 10, 2019 at 1:43 PM
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Helllo GM
I see you're posting regularly, and that's so very good. I'll certainly be back to read through your last three posts peacefully and in one go.
posted by
anib
on January 10, 2019 at 6:00 AM
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It's all about finding the right balance when forgiving.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on January 10, 2019 at 5:52 AM
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I went through this 3 times....as others have said: You put a lot of work into this post. Thank you for making me think about it!
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on January 10, 2019 at 3:43 AM
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You put a lot of thought into this and you did a really good job.
What should be a farely simple subject to deal with is mostly made difficult because the human heart wants to be resentful, to hold a grudge.
posted by
TAPS.
on January 9, 2019 at 11:22 PM
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I enjoyed this post very much. I would like to comment further later, responding to your question in full, as it is late here. 
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on January 9, 2019 at 11:17 PM
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