Go to Seeking Limits of Mankind, and Limits of God
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Joan
Joan, I don't really know much about the Universe, so I don't really know if I like it or not. Most the Universe is being hidden from us, I suspect. All I know about is the little tiny piece of the Universe we occupy, and our desperate struggles in it. I am glad that it is here, and we are part of it. I certainly don't have any automatic faith in the Cosmos, or the goodness of it..... I guess that is what you meant.
Everyone is given, and should be given, free will at the beginning of their existence. Everyone is created with the same potential for good or evil. But when the big choices start being made, and the choice is to abuse, oppress, or destroy others, then there should be immediate consequences for the bad choice.
As for the Rockefellers, I am sure they are engaged in predatory evil as you say. So the portion of their 'free will' that they are using to so engage, should be opposed and thwarted. I don't care how they eat or how they dress or what car to drive. They can keep their free will for the trivia. It is their attempts to oppress and destroy us, that should be thwarted and defeated. That would be the extent of limiting their free will. Actually, it is not so much a problem of 'free will', as it is a necessity to forcefully oppose their evil predatory destructive acts and schemes. They would keep their 'free will', but it would be defeated. It is not so much 'free will' that is of concern, but freedom to act unopposed.
posted by
GoldenMean
on January 6, 2018 at 9:16 PM
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Freewill should never be infringed upon and limited
Wow.. you sure dont like the Universe or you don't have faith in the Cosmos. Freewill should be given to everyone and no one should ever limit freewill. Yes. evil is given freewill. Satan, rolled out of the heaven and he rolled out. That is his problem. Not everone elses.
Everyone is responisble for their actions and I mean everyone. Man kind is responsible for creating evil. He comes up with the idea in his head. He creates it by his emotions.
Creation of problems on the earth right now
1. chemtrails
2. gmo
3 synthtic telepathy
4. voice of god technology
5 holograms
6 mind to mind mapping
7 drones
8 surveillence
9 voice recogition
10 facial recognition
11. jump room technology
Behind the evil is well funded corporations that has gone behind humanity's back just for the sake of doing it. So, money is being used for evil. Just like everything on this planet.. it is a tool, but it is how it is used. We have secret technology that is being unleashed and it is for the elite. They know who we are on a DNA level and are using frequency to punish us low -life humans. I have more faith in the Universe because I know I am made of the stuff. Freewill should never be limited. Is that why we have laws? I guess so. Did I stop the freewill of the evil of men going behind my back to create chemtrails? No. I am the vicitm of their thinking and paying some kind of price because I walk this planet. I am getting the result end of the spraying of chemtrails in the air. Do I walk into the Rockfeller's home and tell them how to eat? How to dress? What car to drive? NO. I do not. I am not that crazy to infringe upon their freewill of daily acitivities. Yet, on a daily basis my freewill is squashed by the constant gangstalking.
posted by
Joanofrance
on December 25, 2017 at 10:41 AM
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Re: Aba
I too, brother Aba, will observe, listen and learn with keen interest, for I will enjoy enhancing my understanding of the topics. And thank you. 
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on May 24, 2017 at 12:22 AM
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Re: Anib
Thank you GM for such a curteous reply. No, it's not my nature to feel challenged, rather when there arises sincere quests, it becomes my duty to respond with equal honesty to the extent my understanding goes. Where is the harm, after all? These exercises are like building up one's mental muscles. The subject matter of karma is vast and you rightly point out that it will be a troublesome affair. But then, there should be healthy dialogues, not reactive but responsive ones. The one creates an atmosphere of argument, the other a justifiably peaceful ambience, in understanding. There is never an 'I win or you win' situation which, I consider immature and childish. I will limit my essay mainly to karma, caste divisions formed on the basis of karma, will attempt an answer on how the system has religious connotation. Today's karma logic of the Hindus is definitely unjust and self-aggrandizing which was not the original version of the karma concept. Thank you ever so much. I hope not to make things tedious.
posted by
anib
on May 22, 2017 at 9:23 PM
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Anib
Thanks for your sincere and careful answer. Please do not go to a lot of trouble, with a tedious blog, because of little old me!!
But if you do address Karma, I hope you will address my main concern, that it uses present evil and future evil to compensate or pay for past evil, and this would seem to make Karma unjust to some degree. By 'evil' I mean the abuse and predatory acts that we humans consider to be crimes: ..... theft, physical abuse, unjustified assault and injury, maiming, rape, unjustified killing (murder), etc. This does not even get into the more subtle non-violent forms of evil, such as social injustice, such as the Hindu caste system. I also wonder how the caste system could be presented as complete and perfect justice, by Hindus for thousands of years. Even if it is justified, it could have been tempered and aided with a generous helping of compassion and charity by those in the higher castes, I would think.
So, please, do not feel challenged or obligated to write a Karma post. But if you do, I know it will be excellent and delightful !! Cheers 
posted by
GoldenMean
on May 22, 2017 at 12:00 PM
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Re: Dear GM
I think there is an aberration in your intuitive conclusion that the sad state of social justice in India reflects poorly upon the cosmic efficiency of karma, as the most perfect justice of the universe. It may appear so outwardly but imho we'll have to understand the whole concept in totality. And for this I'll require more than a comment's page, and secondly, other readers too, may benefit from the discussion which, I sincerely hope, will bring clarity on the subject. What is today being thought even by the intelligentsia, is a thorough disfigurement of the original principle of karma. I'll give a separate blog in a day or two elucidating the topic as per my understanding. Thank you so much.
posted by
anib
on May 21, 2017 at 9:31 PM
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(finishing the thought of my last comment)....... so it is my intuition that the sad state of social injustice in India, for thousands of years, reflects poorly upon the cosmic efficiency of Karma, as the most perfect justice of the universe.
posted by
GoldenMean
on May 20, 2017 at 7:59 AM
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Anib
I do not mind your long comment, in fact I very much enjoyed it. But I am still skeptical or critical of karma. How can karma be the best system of justice, if even we lowly humans can see flaws and shortcomings in it? How can it be best, if it uses evil abuse and crime, in order to enforce karma upon people?
Even if karma IS the best system of justice that our cosmic superiors can come up with, it is being misunderstood and abused by people who believe in it, as in the Hindu caste system in India. Can the caste system truly be justified as a result of karma, by enlightened Hindus such as yourself?
I would think that the Hindu population of India can be considered as the most faithful believers in karma, for thousands of years. They honor it and support it and fear it. And yet, the social injustice in India is perhaps the greatest in the world, with the caste system being a big part of the injustice, and bold rape crimes being another part of the injustice. It is impossible to measure such things, but that is my intuition.
posted by
GoldenMean
on May 19, 2017 at 5:12 AM
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Re: Anib
The word 'Darshan' means 'to see' (in as-it-isness), not merely by one's projections of the mind. It has to be seen or perceived in a state of no-mind. I too like the etymology of the Greeks ... Philo - love ... Sophy - wisdom. The karmic philosophy is none other than the cause-and-effect theory. If something has happened, there has to be a cause behind it. The cosmic Law of Universal Justice cannot be flawed, because they are eternal and unchangeable. Karma is only a revelation of that supreme law. The offender too and the ones who wait for dispensation of justice will have to wait for the seed to sprout and fructify into a tree until the fruits of justice come out. Of these there are wonderful discussions in the Vedas and Puranas. When I first read them I could make nothing, but later, gradually the sense came to me. As to answer your how does one know the seer has seen right? These scriptures are not really scriptures in the ordinary sense that we know of, but are rather an encyclopaedic record of Truths spoken by not men ... but those that transcended the scope of human spheres. Let me make it clear. In order to eliminate any error a man had to purify himself through severe penances and mortifications, not possible for modern man today, but by exceptional men of the yore. Another peculiarity, these encyclopedias were called 'Apaurusheya' that is, not authored by any one (nameless). This means they were only qualified to speak when they were in a state of no-mind, the first test of purity! where the self or I has ceased to exist (I am neither a name label nor form). Gravity, the earth going round the sun, black holes ... being the powerhouses of galaxies, the age of the earnm the sun and of the universe come uncannily close to modern scientific calculations. One only wonders ... how enigmatic, what mysticism! There is, surprisingly, no apocryphal statements in the Vedas. The word Veda means that which is to be known. The stages for attaining to punity of the mind are best described in the epigrammatical 'sutras' literature of my revered scientist of three thousand years ago, Patanjali. When I first read him in Sanskrit I found it to be the ramblings of a mad man. Only much later, came the sense, which even later turned into 'astounding' for me. The eight stages are known as Yama, Niyama, Asana, Pranayama, Prtyahara, Dharana, Dhyana and Samadhi. The first, Yama deals with ethics and integrity ... the way life has to be conducted henceforth. The last, Samadhi, literally translated means 'the solution', when the mind comes to a complete standstill, there are no chattering disturbances, no coloured opinions, no peojections, no doubts, no clouds, only then can one see the skies absolutely clear and azure. That, perhaps is the reason. Do excuse me for turning your comments page into a full-fledged Blog. But then, Cheers, of course.
posted by
anib
on May 11, 2017 at 11:43 PM
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Anib
I had not heard of the word 'Darshan' (seeing) for philosophy. Indeed philosophers are seers, but often the intricate points that they see are wrong, and lead entire segments of society astray for a long time. I prefer the Greek roots of the word 'philosophy', which means the love of wisdom.
All of us can 'see' the failure of justice in the world, the failure to stop predatory evil in-the-act. the 'as-it-isness' of that. Every religion has their explanations for that..... but they do not see it as a failure, as I do. If we can all agree that stopping evil in-the-act is necessary and crucial for justice, then two glorious things would begin to happen. We would start doing it more ourselves, and we would begin to expect it and demand it from our Gods, whatever our concept of God might be.
As for Hinduism and the Vedas, I do not have to study them in detail to know that their grand mechanism for justice is Karma, and I have explained that karma is not so grand, because it does not stop evil in-the-act, but delays justice to another reincarnation of life, far in the future. In many cases, karma uses the evil of a future crime to punish the evil of a past crime. We should all 'see' that this perpetuates and increases evil, rather than stopping and reducing it. Remember the wise old saying "two wrongs do not make a right".
But in India, I am quite sure that when a terrible crime or abuse happens, many Hindu believers say that the victim must have deserved it because of karma. If I am mistaken, then please tell me of my error. I greatly respect your wisdom and your intimate knowledge of India, and I am very thankful for your reading and your comments.
I do not reject karma outright, in fact I think it is probably the best justice system that religions have to offer. But it is tragically flawed, and we should see the flaws as well. Highest regards to you, and as always...... Cheers
posted by
GoldenMean
on May 11, 2017 at 5:01 AM
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GM
Doctrines emanate from philosophical rationalisations. I am sure you have heard of the Vedic term 'Darshan', for philosophy ... which means 'seeing' ... those of the seers. And what they have found are incontrovertible and non-apocryphal With their as-it-isness. Thus, more than in doctrines, I find truth and real practical solutions in the Vedas. They are the finest fruits of the tree of knowledge, evergreen ever. 
Cheers.
posted by
anib
on May 10, 2017 at 9:50 PM
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You made some very fine points in this post! sam
posted by
sam444
on May 7, 2017 at 12:54 PM
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Naut
I fully expected a comment from you, saying that I have simply confirmed your position that the universe does not care about our plight as individual humans. That is one facet of my post, but only one. I greatly respect you for refraining from that temptation.
So let me explain my position a bit further. I am torn between criticizing our cosmic superiors (if they are omnipotent) for their dismal failure to give us justice....... or sympathizing with our cosmic superiors (if they are NOT omnipotent) for the epic struggle they are having with their predatory enemies in the metaphysical realm.
But regardless of which way that may go, I am trying to establish the basic natural moral principles that we can move forward with, if you are right and there is nothing spiritual or metaphysical. What we should do or not do, does not depend upon our concept of God.
So, I await you next comment with much anticipation and delight.
posted by
GoldenMean
on May 5, 2017 at 10:11 PM
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GM
Maybe this weekend I'll find the time to write a comment that does justice to these two posts...
posted by
Nautikos
on May 5, 2017 at 8:42 PM
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