Go to The Beat Goes On - Reprise
- Add a comment
- Go to The Good September 11th
Thank you, Annicita and very well said, Shobana, I don't understand
why mankind cannot evolve on this issue either..
posted by
Katray2
on September 21, 2016 at 12:24 PM
| link to this | reply
Yes so true what you say here Katray. Indeed non-violence methods of voicing discern and reaching conclusive results as opposed to violence with war and bloodshed is the better option for mankind on the whole. I don't understand how after all these years, there is still no end to violence - even with all the educating!
posted by
shobana
on September 20, 2016 at 9:13 PM
| link to this | reply
posted by
Annicita
on September 20, 2016 at 2:40 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Katray
Thank you, GoldenMean, I really appreciate it! 
posted by
Katray2
on September 20, 2016 at 10:31 AM
| link to this | reply
Katray
I will agree to disgree, as you say. I enjoyed the exchange of ideas, and hold no hard feelings or hostility toward you. I consider you a sparring partner and a friend, here on Blogit. I wish you the best in your life, and will pray for your enlightenment and spiritual advancement, as well as my own, LOL. Gandhi was far ahead of us both, in that regard. Cheers 
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 18, 2016 at 8:07 PM
| link to this | reply
South Africa also ended its killing fields by negotiations, not war.
Some anti-peace folks may desire that "other" cultures will kill themselves off in war - and with weapons produced by our industries at great profit - but when we had slavery and segregation horrors and terrors of KKK, we celebrated Dr. Martin Luther King Jr and non-violence, not Malcolm X, as a society-at-large? Peace is not profitable as war, but is pursued by heroes, and those who study the way Jesus Christ in detail.
posted by
NocrossJustchristmas
on September 18, 2016 at 10:09 AM
| link to this | reply
Go Katray! Why God refused David his desire to build His Temple?
I think Gandhi would like your debating these folks, who demand our "enemies" stop "murdering" (= "killing") our soldiers and civilians, rgiht! double standards; we MUST have our guns or nukes. And secret abortions - is that killing, or murder? Ask Republicns and Democrats! But the Patriarch David was a man after God's own heart, yet because of violence - "a man of war" - God refused David this desire to build His temple. That was left to David's son by Bathsheba, Solomon. Also, in Malachi (chapters 2-3), we are abjured to walk in righteousness, be kind to widows, orphans, give off our earnings, and be kind to strangers. Quite aside from the Pslams that speka of kindness to exiles etc., and my blog mentions Hebrews 13:1. Until the Bible is not a textbook for colonialism or white supremacy, war &terror will grow on earth. Yet my vow is to repeat shalom, shalom - wholeness/holistic life, not mere peace.
posted by
NocrossJustchristmas
on September 18, 2016 at 10:03 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Katray
Goldenmean, this exchange has strayed far from Gandhi and his determination to bring about change in a non violent manner. I have participated in these back and forth comments obviously and should not have done so because that weakens the point I was trying to make here about the worthiness of peaceful protest. However, I stand by everything I say and believe and I'm sure you do too but we'll just have to agree to disagree.
posted by
Katray2
on September 18, 2016 at 9:15 AM
| link to this | reply
Katray
Like most people, you are suffering under a tragic misconception and in this case, a mistranslation. The commandment “thou shall not kill” was actually written as “you shall not murder” in original Hebrew, and there is a great difference between “kill” and “murder”.
It must be remembered that the definition of “murder” is unlawful or unjustified killing. That is what the tyrants have done, to gain and keep their power. In war, liberators are not murderers, they are soldiers in a just cause, a compassionate cause, with heavy hearts for the controlled destruction that is necessary to stop a tyrant’s evil.
For civilians, in the case of defending one’s life against attack, killing someone who is trying to kill you or your loved one or your neighbor, is legally and morally justified, as it should be.
There is an earlier commandment that most people do not know about. In Genesis 9:5-6, God told Noah after the flood: “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God he made man.” This clearly sanctifies violence and killing against those who have murdered.
And then we have Ecclesiastes 3….. “To everything there is a season….. there is a time to kill and a time to heal. A time to tear down and a time to build up.”
I too have a Native American ancestor. Much of what was done to the Indians in America was wrong. But they were not noble innocents. Before any white man showed up, they constantly attacked, slaughtered, tortured and enslaved each other. They had many chances to change their way of life, and bow to the inevitable, and co-exist with a new civilization, but they refused. Still, I say again, much of what was done to them was horrible and wrong.
As for the Jews who escaped Hitler’s Germany, good for them, but they could have chosen to stand and fight a tyrant, for their people and their culture and their rights. Instead, they ran, and handed their responsibility to someone else, to bring down the tyranny. Those soldiers who then fought and died to bring down Nazi Germany get no appreciation or thanks from you, apparently.
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 15, 2016 at 5:27 AM
| link to this | reply
Goldenmean, thanks but no thanks..
There were Jewish people who survived Hitler and the Holocaust by going into hiding or getting out of whatever country was being invaded in the nick of time - in other words, they outsmarted the Third Reich - not all who did succeeded but many did. So you see, violence isn't the only way to defend and protect.
I have Native American ancestry; pray tell who saved those ancestors or gave them freedom? War is not a gift of liberty, only an instrument of death and destruction.
I don't think you appreciate the commandment of Thou shalt not murder as inscribed - no exceptions were added by God, though there are, of course, man made exceptions. I've always wondered why that particular commandment is not taken literally by Christians when so many other passages in the Bible are. Strikes me as hypocrisy designed for an agenda of war making, shameless profiteering and mortal superiority.
posted by
Katray2
on September 14, 2016 at 9:49 AM
| link to this | reply
So, Katray, when the predators come to you or your loved ones, you will be like a sheep to slaughter, offering no fight, for fear of killing them? But if I was there, I would kill them for you, saving you and all their future victims after you. This is a form of salvation, and it demeans nothing. You should be grateful for those who are willing to both kill and die to save you. They have already saved you, and given you your freedom, but you do not seem to recognize or appreciate it. Cheers
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 13, 2016 at 8:46 PM
| link to this | reply
Thanks to everyone for the great comments!
posted by
Katray2
on September 13, 2016 at 12:53 PM
| link to this | reply
Goldenmean, violence in protest and activism for rights, justice and peace
swells the chains of despair and hopelessness and renders the movements meaningless. This was Gandhi's message, in my view. I myself do not condone war or killing of any stripe because I believe in a karmic spirituality that does not require bloodshed as a solution - what is meant to happen happens for a reason and there is another level of life beyond this plane where all is weighed and balanced for the soul to understand. I think one Creator wishes each and every one of us will ascend to that level, eventually.
posted by
Katray2
on September 13, 2016 at 12:52 PM
| link to this | reply
Katray
Thanks for your informative post. I was happy to learn about the other 9/11. Gandhi was an amazing man who accomplished much for the cause of non-violent civil disobedience to right social wrongs. But he was successful because his opponents still had some morality in their souls. I don't think he would have done as well, if he had tried it in the USSR, Nazi Germany, or Communist China. I think they would have killed him, either outright or in a prison camp. They would have done whatever it took to silence him permanently. If Gandhi tried it in present-day North Korea, he would be doing hard labor for life. They would not even allow him to die for his cause, and he would be cut off from the rest of the world. If he tried it in the territories of ISIS, we would see his public execution in a video.
When you are being attacked by vicious predators, and refuse to fight them to protect your own, or refuse to kill them if necessary, you are guaranteeing their success. There are a few causes that I will kill for, and NOT just lay down and die for, including protecting my family, my friends, my neighbors, my basic moral values, my country (what is left of it). In the Army, I was willing to kill AND die for the freedom of people in other countries. Luckily, the time never came for me, but I was willing to do both. Kill first, then die, in that order..... otherwise, it would have been a wasted death, unless I sacrificed myself to save my fellow soldiers.
Where would the good folks of Germany and Japan be today, if we had not been willing to kill their oppressors and given them their freedom back? For that matter, where would we be? We would likely be speaking German or Japanese.
This illustrates that the ideal of non-violent pacifism can be taken to an erroneous extreme, just as violent defense against predators can be taken to an erroneous extreme.
But if we are only willing to die for our cause, there are hordes of vicious human predators who will gladly oblige and kill us. If we do not forcefully resist, then we have paved with our blood and treasure the predator's path to his next victim.
posted by
GoldenMean
on September 12, 2016 at 3:58 PM
| link to this | reply
Katray2
Thinking of you on 9/11
posted by
WileyJohn
on September 11, 2016 at 12:19 PM
| link to this | reply
Here is to hoping that peace prevails.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on September 11, 2016 at 4:38 AM
| link to this | reply
Katray2
Who would not prefer peace to war? It is beyond my scope of intellectual comprehension that war would ever be a choice, given a choice. If only... Lovely post, dear Katray2.
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on September 10, 2016 at 9:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Gandhi, one of my very few true heroes. He showed all his life that he would die for a cause but never kill for one. So many lives changed for the better because of this one frail man.
posted by
Kabu
on September 10, 2016 at 1:00 PM
| link to this | reply
Occasionally men and women of extraordinary courage and purpose bring hope to many who feel they having nothing much to live for. It does seem it needs a miracle to solve the worlds problems , Most do not want to think about it, war has been too prominent in older folks lives and the young live their dream.
posted by
C_C_T
on September 10, 2016 at 11:30 AM
| link to this | reply