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Re: Kabu - it seems you are making two different points
No I don't think we have to judge each other's beliefs; or non beliefs for that matter. I do think we are indoctinated with some prejudices absolutely yes, but You have helped me to understand how hurtful and distaseful jugemental statement can be, even if a person thinks that they should be written. Well they shouldn't and I am grateful to have learned that.
posted by
Kabu
on March 19, 2012 at 9:51 AM
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Katray2 - thank you
One of the things that I can vouch for Xeno-x is, that like myself, we both attempt to stick to nothing but facts to make our cases. I have made a pledge to myself (and have stuck to it) that if I present something in a post or comment that is proven to be false, I will correct or remove it. I'd like to say that this has never been necessary but in truth there have been a few corrections over the years.
The "Aremageddon cycle" when viewed in an historical context over the past few centuries, reads like a long list of tragic human folly. From suicides to widespread panic, to disposing of worldly possessions it is sad that this notion continually revives itself.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:18 AM
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Kabu - it seems you are making two different points
Blogit itself has changed, it is my hope that I am able to change with it and I share your sentiments in that regard. As for judging the beliefs of others; I suggest that to some degree it is inevitable when expressing our own religious opinions but do not consider doing so as attempting to play site watchdog.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:06 AM
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Xeno-x - that is basically how I understand the history
We must include 20th century pogroms and forced relocation to the area.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:00 AM
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Really appreciate you and Xeno's postings - learning even more
and grasping a little better what my evangelical relatives go on and on about - the why I'll never get! Seems the ecstasy for Armageddon cycles around every four years or so..:)
posted by
Katray2
on March 19, 2012 at 12:16 AM
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I really hope that as I get older I have become more palatable for most
people here in blogit.I am working on myself anyway. LOL. ie often delete a comment and start again. Cos I don't think that I should be juging anyone or their beliefs and that it is the blogit watchdog's job to prevent indecent, cruel, obscene, etc postings not mine.
Write on Mc Duff!!!!
posted by
Kabu
on March 18, 2012 at 5:09 PM
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Re: Xeno-x - Re: this is complicated
very light and not complete overview of the recent history of the area (Levant):
1800's - Zionist settlers began buying land and displacing resident Arabs who have lived there for generations.
late 1800's - 1920's -- European colonization in a manner of speaking -- the movie, "Lawrence of Arabia" shows a part of this -- with Britain dividing up the area into (as was done in Africa) artificial national boundaries, with a "protectorate" throughout various parts of the Middle East.
1930's - 1940's - The Holocaust and exodus en masse of Jews to the Levant (as the movie "Exodus"). The U.N. Resolution that created the State of Israel, inciting the first war. You would have to ask a Arab why, but I suspect that it was because they were left out of the process.
The Cold War, with competition for the area between U.S. and U.S.S.R. -- U.S. taking side of Israel & U.S.S.R. backing Arab countries (seems Saudi Arabia mainly stayed out of this)
Subsequent wars, 1967, 1973, where Israel prevailed.
Main issues: Jewish takeover of Arab lands, displacing Arabs, unlawful settlements in West Bank Palestine, "The Wall", which apparently will seal off the West Bank from Israel totally, much like the Berlin Wall, and which takes up more Arab land.
Part of the problem, of course, is the "God is on our side." mentality, on the part of I guess all parties, but I am thinking of the conservative faction in Israel and Conservative Millennialist Christians.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 18, 2012 at 10:42 AM
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Xeno-x - Re: this is complicated
It certainly is complicated and I am reluctant to appear naive and uninformed by attempting to simplify very complex issues but it seems even those more versed in the region cannot answer a handful of very simple questions. The two most important being: Why is there still no Palestinian state after all of these years and why are the Palestinians and neighboring Arab countries perpetually so pissed off at Israel and the west? Western propaganda attempts to imply that it is a regional collective mindset of wrong thinking fostered by an inherent historical tribal warfare mentality strongly influenced by a restrictive religion.
The propaganda may have its roots in some fact but I am simply not buying that Israel and their allies in the west are not without at least some portion of the blame for the ongoing Arab-Israeli conflict.
As far as the incorporation of the Jewish people into Christian eschatology; I am completely miffed, the second coming/end times scenario is so preposterous to me that I quite often wonder if so many people endorsing this belief is not an elaborate practical joke of some kind.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2012 at 1:34 PM
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this is complicated
Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah -- look forward to Messiah coming. Of course there were dozens of "Messiahs" in Jesus' time.
As far as homeland and such is concerned, the Moslem Arab population alllowed Jews to settle in the Levant for quite a while. Then of couirse we have the idea of Messiah coming to Jerusalem. That seems to be at least one of the ideas behind Zionism (but I am ont well versed in this). Problem is -- Abraham and his heirs (includes Arabs) were promised the land -- and Jews' portion is about a third of the present territory of Israel.
Then there are the Christian supporters of Zionism. They use this "desolation sitting in the Holy Place of Daniel and Matthew 24 -- that a Temple must be built then the Desolation must sit in the HOly of Holies before Jesus returns. Problem is -- Jews don't believe this -- and the Christians who do figure the Jews will then be converted. So both sides, while taking support in some way from the other, do it for their own aims, really to the exlcusion of the other.
Still, it is funny that so many Christians don't know that Jews don't believe Jesus is Messiah.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 17, 2012 at 1:00 PM
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TAPS. - I would describe my views towards Israel as neutral
As I would describe my views towards any nation or peoples from that region and I should add that in no way do I consider myself knowledgeable about the area. On the contrary, I am attempting to sift through mountains of pro- Israeli propaganda whilst overcoming my own inherent prejudices (much of which has been instilled by that same propaganda) in an effort to figure out what makes people tick over there. So far I have only been able to arrive at a handful of rudimentary conclusions, probably the most important of those being a very basic understanding of why the Arabs are so pissed off at Israel and the west.
I find it somewhat amusing that you are fascinated by two people having differing opinions on an issue simply because they both reside north of the 49th parallel but I guess you are also attempting to reconcile non belief as being part of the equation. I've said it before many times; non belief in a supreme being is an individualistic mindset predicated upon an inherent integrity. You must keep in mind that there are no pastors, popes or underlying dogma exerting influence to conform the thought processes of the non believer. We pretty much have to sort our perspectives out for ourselves.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2012 at 11:46 AM
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Re: TAPS. - we've had this discussion in the past
The point was not missed, for the last comment of mine it was ignored. I find it fascinating how two Canadian non-believers of The Rapture/atheists/agnostics/whatever one wants to call people, can write pretty much about the same subject and be on such opposite sides of the middle east foreign policy. Look at Naut's current post, he has pro Israeli sentiment if anyone does and likes how it exists at the grassroots level in the USA and wishes to help it along. I like reading both of you even though it makes my head swim and I have trouble expressing myself in response. Keep writing.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 17, 2012 at 10:44 AM
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TAPS. - we've had this discussion in the past
You may have missed the point on what makes persons relating such beliefs scary. It is how the belief itself, if shared by enough people can affect the world we all live in. In the case of the Christian end times scenario with regards to Israel, it has had a subtle effect on foreign policy in the middle east over the years. In that a pro Israeli sentiment exists at the grassroots level in the USA as in no other country.
It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a third major world conflict could escalate from current tensions in that region today. If that were to happen nothing good could possibly come from it, the "rapture ready" folks will be incinerated by nukes just like the rest of us.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2012 at 8:06 AM
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Katray2 -Re: There are Christians who believe Jews fully returned to Israel
I remember the summer of 2006 when the ongoing conflict between the Palestinians and Israelis escalated to the point where the Israelis decimated entire city blocks in Palestinian areas; there was a sense of jubilation amongst adherents to the end times beliefs, some right here on Blogit. They actually believed that something good (for them) was going to come of this. Not one of them realizing the absurdity of a God that would do such a thing as rapture a small select group up to heaven while leaving the rest of mankind on earth to destroy itself.
The most shocking part for me is how flippantly believers in this scenario dismiss the fate of the majority of mankind. Certain in their minds that they will be part of the select group and not giving a flying fig about their friends and neighbors.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2012 at 7:48 AM
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sam444 - there was nothing judgmental about it
It was more an effort on my part to understand this particular segment of Christian eschatology and determine if it is still a mainstream belief in the 21st century. Apparently it is still adhered to amongst some groups despite the obvious inconsistencies within its framework. The belief in the second coming has somehow survived the development of conflicting religious constructs over the past centuries. It also survives the fact that the Jewish people do not subscribe to this belief, relegating them to become merely pawns playing a role in the religious beliefs of others.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2012 at 7:18 AM
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It really shouldn't be scary what someone else believes. No matter how much one believes in heaven or hell, he cannot send someone to either place with his beliefs. A man is condemned, or approved, only by his own beliefs, or lack of them.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 16, 2012 at 11:22 PM
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There are Christians who believe Jews fully returned to Israel
is the trigger for the return of Jesus, which will sweep all true believers in Christ to heaven. What happens to the Jews then?? Apparently they are left behind to fight unto empty deaths or something like that. I have evangelic relatives who have explained it this way, though admittedly I may have lost something in the translation. It is truly confusing and mind boggling, but it seems as though, according to these Christians anyway, that their God practices favoritism and can be rather fickle..I try to understand but for myself and what I feel in my heart regarding spiritual matters, this is all rather self serving; being based on a type of earthly narcissism.
posted by
Katray2
on March 16, 2012 at 9:19 PM
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I am fully aware of that because they believe the Messiah has not come yet according to the Torah! They also believe that the Messiah, when He comes, will take them back to the land of Israel with joy and hope! Why would you ask that kind of question to begin with though was my initial thought! But it doesn't matter in the long run! Those who pass judgement have condemned themselves in my humble opinion! Some Jews think it is utterly ridiculous to believe in Jesus as well, but it doesn't bother me in the least! I support the Jewish faith because for me, according to my beliefs, they are the chosen people of God! It is just that simple for me! Have a great evening! sam 
posted by
sam444
on March 16, 2012 at 9:02 PM
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