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Well you make some interesting points, Krisles and I'd love to be that mouse in the room too..:) Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

posted by Katray2 on March 23, 2012 at 5:04 AM | link to this | reply

You know, no matter where on earth you place the conflict.....or what the seems the feelings about the "rights" to the land, the "ownership" issue is an almost unsolvable one.  I know it will make no sense to anyone but as I read through this....sitting just 80 miles from the Alamo, thinking of the six flags that have flown over Texas....having grown up with the knowledge that my Mexican friends grew up believing Texas, in point of fact,  belongs to Mexico....listening to my Mother mutter about how the Mexicans are "taking over" Texas.....harboring all kinds of irritations myself about Spanish being  required more and more on labels and citizens not being required to learn English which I believe is driving us further apart....border problems rife everywhere and daily.....genuine concerns that my state is being absorbed by another country....well, I read all this back and forth and I simply isn't knowable to anyone who isn't living in the middle of it and has a piece of pie on the plate....and all your study, all your reading, all your thinking, all your arguing is interesting (wait! that's a lie; it reaches a point of being boring as hell which is scary because it's such a very important issue)......but it's all just another form of he said, she said....I'm afraid I've gotten very cynical about any info I read anywhere....oh, but to be a little mouse in the room with folks who are actually involved in the, THAT would be enlightening.

posted by Krisles on March 22, 2012 at 10:40 PM | link to this | reply

well this created discussion....I have been reading through the comments.

posted by Kabu on March 18, 2012 at 7:07 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Not upset at all, BrightIrish

Yes, honesty is the only way to know the truth. I appreciate your honesty and continued interest.

posted by Katray2 on March 18, 2012 at 7:23 AM | link to this | reply

I will stand with the history of the Bible. Israel is the only true democracy there. They are our only true friends there, I will stand with Israel.

posted by UtahJay on March 17, 2012 at 9:37 PM | link to this | reply

I agree with your view.

posted by afzal50 on March 17, 2012 at 8:21 PM | link to this | reply

Hi .. Please don't be upset when I keep returning to read without a written opinion. You know that my thought is confused on this matter. Wouldn't it be nice to know the honest views of the people without the politicians involvement.  

posted by BrightIrish on March 17, 2012 at 1:09 PM | link to this | reply

sam444 - before getting completely off topic

The point is that outsiders believing that the State of Israel has some type of ordained right to establish themselves in the area is not a view shared by the people who have lived their for generations.

posted by gomedome on March 16, 2012 at 7:45 PM | link to this | reply

UtahJay - you have just made my point for me.

When I look at statements such as: " , , , 1000 rockets have been fired into Israel in the past 4 months." - The first question that comes into my mind is: What could possibly get those Arabs so pissed off that they are continually doing stuff like that? Then I see the obvious, 3 million Palestinian people didn't just arrive there to live in their densely populated areas.

Then when I see a simple historical population chart showing how long their culture has existed in the area, the question is answered. The next question I ask myself is how I would react if a people with fundamental philosophical differences than my own laid claim and established themselves in what I considered my homeland? It would be a poor analogy to compare them directly to our first nations but many of the underlying sentiments of outrage could apply.

posted by gomedome on March 16, 2012 at 7:13 PM | link to this | reply

Re: sam444 - Re: Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything

Thank you for explaining, Gomedome. You are known here as a fact based researcher/writer so that is enough for me.

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 6:32 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything - Sam,

I don't need it, I was simply curious as to why it wasn't! It seems to me that Blogit has stated that when cited works are used they need a link! And I see that you cited Wikipedia, and I have a great deal of concern with accurate information coming from that source as well! I am glad you have confidence in gnomedome, but when a work isn't cited I take no one's word for it personally unless it is their personal work with proof to back it up! sam 

posted by sam444 on March 16, 2012 at 6:31 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Jay, I have been researching this issue for quite awhile

I don't take anything any media says at face value. And I have stated several times that of course there are Islamic extremists - those who tragically choose violence over diplomacy. The points I'm trying to make are that there are also Israeli extremists involved in this heartbreaking situation. And that adding Christian extremism to the mix is just throwing more fuel to the already raging fires. Religion is the root of it all...
I doubt if every Palestinian enjoys living in a walled-in prison; that said, I'm sure many feel as countless millions worldwide do - home is home! And I have no doubt other Muslim countries have been far less than helpful. All of this still does not answer the question of why no state for the Palestinians?

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 6:30 PM | link to this | reply

sam444 - Re: Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything

This information came from an older hard copy of Encyclopedia Brittanica, I have run it through a process of using the software resident to my computer, utilizing HTML code and rudimentary image processing to produce a lightweight image of a historical population chart for the region. I am certain it is accurate, I can only drop links to mountains of corroborating evidence, the image was made by me.

posted by gomedome on March 16, 2012 at 6:29 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything - Sam,

My apologies; I did forget to post the link to my information:

I don't know where the table Gomedome posted came from, but I do know he is a person who deals in facts. I will search more to try to find it for you.

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 6:22 PM | link to this | reply

I read what you had to say and respect your point of view, however when one visits the Holy Land they find a whole different world than what we see twisted on the news and in the media. It just so happens that the Palestinians living in Israel prefer living there than they do outside of Israel, however they will not tell you this on camera because they fear for their lives if other Muslims might happen to see this. Here we see what the powers that be want us to see and nothing else. I would suggest that you google a map of Palestine before 1947. When you do you will notice that Jordan, and Syria both took more land from the old Palestine that did Israel. So tell me...Why is no one suggesting that they give their parts of Palestine back. I suggest that you turn off the media and research the truth. While you are doing that remember that close to 1000 rockets have been fired into Israel in the past 4 months. Ask yourself why the media does not report that. I thought your post was well thought out, but most of us fail to do any research and take the media at their word never realising that they have an agenda, and therefor slant their views towards that agenda.

posted by UtahJay on March 16, 2012 at 5:48 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything

I do not understand why you and others who comment do not have a link where the information was obtained! I checked every link in your comment and a 404 message comes up! So, it makes no sense to cite something that cannot be viewed as to where it came from! Just a thought! sam 

posted by sam444 on March 16, 2012 at 4:01 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything

Wow, that is illuminating, Gomedome! Shows the argument of "the Jews were there first" to be quite shaky indeed. If that is the only reason or justification Israel extremist supporters have, doesn't add up at all. But if you have noticed, the reasons have shifted from because "it's says so in my Bible!" to this. That is because hypocrisy and religious elitism were unwittingly exposed and then quickly moved away from. I believe the Bible reason is the real reason for many supporters here in the U.S. But they try to either deny (after admitting it - wth??) or to enhance with this kind of propaganda and I agree with you, is exactly what it is!
Also first stated then ignored when presented with facts to the contrary is the "Israel doesn't want to obliterate anyone" - that one is so glaringly false as to be laughable..
Thank you.

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 3:45 PM | link to this | reply

Katray2 - propaganda will not solve anything

I read the first comment and have to applaud its author for attempting to construct a well crafted argument utilizing traditional propaganda techniques. Specifically presenting a one sided argument utilizing only certain aspects of historical fact and carefully not mentioning anything that may be detrimental to the intended conclusion. Yes we know that there has never been a Palestinian state but that does not answer the underlying question which is: why not? . . . further expanded to inquire as to the differences (if any) of Palestinian claims to the region over Jewish claims? The unfortunate outcome of attempting to use propaganda to answer this question is that it only fools some of the people some of the time.

For the sake of brevity let us address only the historical timeline and claims that the Jewish people have a right to the region based on their continued presence there. Below is an image showing a population breakdown during much of the time period discussed earlier. (per thousand)


posted by gomedome on March 16, 2012 at 12:22 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: I have read this before, Dear Sam

Much to think about in your comment, CCT. Thank you and I also appreciate the diplomatic description!

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM | link to this | reply


Very true, FSI. Thank you.

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 11:52 AM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: I have read this before, Dear Sam

Sorry Ray, religion is barely discussed over here over here once as you may know wars were fought for beliefs, perhaps we were initiated earlier in time, something like that. At least you are diplomatic.

posted by C_C_T on March 16, 2012 at 10:06 AM | link to this | reply

Like you I believe that peace can be achieved. It's going to take a whole lot of work though.

posted by FormerStudentIntern on March 16, 2012 at 9:33 AM | link to this | reply

Re: I have read this before, Dear Sam

but the fact remains that Arabs and non-Jews still lived there, in relative peace once upon a time..and their concerns had little weight amongst the powers that be. And they are still there now; stateless and suffering...I could compare this to the Native American dilemma - they were HERE first, lived on these lands way before any non-native souls set foot on the soil, so does that mean we will restore all lands to them? This is not sarcasm, I just don't understand why the similarities are ignored by so many. And remember the "God-on-our-side" justification is/was used to oppress them!
And my main point is the fact that Jewish takeover of all lands is believed to be a Bible mandate and that is all that matters to many Israeli extremism supporters.

Thank you for sharing/commenting.


"In his posthumously published 1981 book The Anglo-American Establishment, Georgetown University history professor Carroll Quigley explained that the Balfour Declaration was actually drafted by Lord Alfred Milner.More recently, William D. Rubinstein, Professor of Modern History at Aberystwyth University, Wales, wrote that Conservative politician and pro-Zionist Leo Amery, as Assistant Secretary to the British war cabinet in 1917, was the main author of the Balfour Declaration."

"The Arabs expressed disapproval in November 1918 at the parade marking the first anniversary of the Balfour Declaration. The Muslim-Christian Association protested the carrying of new "white and blue banners with two inverted triangles in the middle". They drew the attention of the authorities to the serious consequences of any political implications in raising the banners.

Later that month, on the first anniversary of the occupation of Jaffa by the British, the Muslim-Christian Association sent a lengthy memorandum and petition to the military governor protesting once more any formation of a Jewish state.[29]

On November 1918 the large group of Palestinian Arab dignitaries and representatives of political associations addressed a petition to the British authorities in which they denounced the declaration. The document stated:

...we always sympathized profoundly with the persecuted Jews and their misfortunes in other countries... but there is wide difference between such sympathy and the acceptance of such a nation...ruling over us and disposing of our affairs."

posted by Katray2 on March 16, 2012 at 6:42 AM | link to this | reply

Palestine came into existence in 1967! And here's a thought on it below! sam 

"PALESTINE" - Never an Arab Country

One of the myths of our time is that Israel, before it was settled by the “alien” Jews and “stolen” from the Arabs as a result of “imperialist machinations,” was an independent state called “Palestine” whose majority residents were Moslem “Palestinians”. Unfortunately for those who would propagate such misinformation, the truth can be easily and historically seen.

The historical fact is that until the defeat of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire in World War I, there was no geopolitical entity called “Palestine,” no Arab nation ever set historical roots on this soil and no national claim was ever made to the territory by any national group other than the Jews.

Between the time of the expulsion of the Jews by the Romans in the year 70 to 132 AD and the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in 1918, Israel (“Palestine”) was occupied by fourteen conquerors over thirteen centuries, until in 1948 the Jews once again declared their independence. The following table shows the historical periods of the various rulers of “Palestine”:


1. Israel Rule (Biblical period) 1350 BC to 586 BC
2. Babylonian Conquest 587 BC to 538 BC
3. Israel Autonomy (under Persian & Greco-Assyrian sovereignty) 538 BC to 168 BC
4. Revolt of the Maccabees 168 BC to 143 BC
5. Rule of the Hashmoneans & their successors 143 BC to 70 AD
6. Jewish Autonomy (under Roman & Byzantine sovereignty) 70 AD to 637 AD
7. Rule of Moslem Caliphs
Mecca 637 AD to 661 AD
Umayyides 661 AD to 750 AD
Abbaaside 750 AD to 870 AD
Fatimides 969 AD to 1071 AD
637 AD to 1072 AD
8. Seljukes Rule 1072 AD to 1096 AD
9. Crusaders
Ayyubids (in parts only) 1175 AD to 1291 AD
1099 AD to 1291 AD
10. Mamelukes Rule 1291 AD to 1516 AD
11. Ottomans (Turks) 1516 AD to 1918 AD
12. British Mandate 1918 AD to 1948 AD
13. Israel rule under democracy 1948 AD --- .

Thus, during the entire period of recorded history “Palestine” was never ruled by so called “Palestinians”, the name adopted today by the Moslem residents of the Holy Land. The rule of the various Moslem Caliphates, which was a foreign rule, extended for a period of 432 years – Jewish rule of “Palestine” extended over a period of over 2000 years.

The inhabitants of the land consisted of the conquering soldiers and their slaves, and only during the Moslem conquest of the area were these diverse ethnic inhabitants compelled to accept Islam and the Arabic tongue, or be put to the sword. The Jews, on the other hand, are in fact the sole survivors of the ancient inhabitants of “Palestine”, who have maintained an uninterrupted link with the land since the dawn of recorded history.

It is one of the failures of our media today that, while an almost complete acceptance is granted to an absurd, fabricated lie, no attention at all is paid to the fascinating story of the Jewish families and communities who have resided in the Holy Land without interruption since Biblical times. These people have, throughout hundreds and thousands of years, kept their national claim to God's given ownership of their homeland.

Arabs Recognize Jewish Sovereignty

These facts were well known and publicly recognized by the international community in 1919, during the Allied peace Conference in Paris, to which representatives of the Middle East Moslems, as well as the Jewish people were invited. At this conference, Emir (Crown Prince) Feisal, son of king Hussein (great grandfather of the present king Hussein of Jordan), who headed the Moslem delegation, agreed that “Palestine” should be earmarked as the specific area in which Jewish sovereignty was to mature.

He announced acceptance of the Balfour Declaration of November 2nd, 1917, and concluded an agreement with the World Zionist Organization, confirming that “all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantee of carrying into effect the British Government's Balfour Declaration”.

These same sentiments were expressed by Emir Feisal in a letter (dated March 3, 1919) to Prof. Felix Frankfurter, Justice of the United States Supreme Court: “Our deputation here in Paris is full acquainted with the proposals submitted by the Zionist organization to the Peace Conference, and we regard them as modest and proper. We will do our best, insofar as we are concerned, to help them through. We will wish the Jews a most hearty welcome home.”

Jewish Areas Reduced

The two sets of promises officially made by Britain – one to the Moslems and the other to the Jews – were originally fully reconcilable ones.

The interesting historical fact is that between World War I and the United Nations partition of “Palestine” in 1947, British promises to the Moslems were over-fulfilled, while their promises to the Jews were constantly violated and whittled down. Far from being the victims of imperialism, the Moslems were handsomely rewarded when 20 sovereign states were artificially established by the British after carving up the former Turkish Empire. These new countries had no previous national history or independent culture.

The development of the part of “Palestine” allocated by the major Powers for Jewish sovereignty took a different course. The area originally designated and agreed to by Hussein and Feisal was first reduced by four-fifths. Four-fifths of the Jewish homeland was given in a “land for peace” agreement and on this land today's kingdom of Jordan was established. On one-fifth of the remaining land, the democratic country of Israel exists today. In 1948, in the wake of 7 invading armies, Israel declared independence. The State of Israel consists of less than 8,000 square miles. Against this, only five Moslem States – Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq – cover an area of 1,200,000 square miles.

It should be pointed out here that at that time over 70% of today's Israel consisted of Crown lands transferred from the outgoing Ottoman Power to the Incoming British Mandatory Authority. The remaining 30% of the land was largely swamp and barren hillside: It was in these areas that Jewish settlement began through land purchase from absentee Moslem owners. At no time did the Jews seek to displace the indigenous Moslem population.

The distribution of land in 1949 in the part of “Palestine” after Israel was re-established was as follows:

  • 8.6% of the land was owned by Jews.
  • 3.3% of the land was owned by Israeli Moslems.
  • 16.5% of the land was owned by other Moslems.
  • 70% of the land was the property of the British Mandatory Government, after 1948 transferee to the Government of Israel.
Under the Mandate, the Jewish population continued to grow but while their immigration was progressively restricted, that of Moslems from the surrounding countries (Syria and Jordan) was completely free. As a result, attracted by the Jewish development of the country, the Moslem population increased rapidly and had attained majority by 1947.

Palestinian Arabs Never a Nation

“Palestinian” Arab nationalism today is a product of recent political and religious currents. Until the 1920's no such national community had even existed in “Palestine”. This is why both the Balfour Declaration and the League of Nations Mandate charged the Jews of the National Home with guaranteeing the civil and religious rights of other inhabitants. No mention was made of other national rights of other inhabitants, as it was recognized that the only national claim to the area was that made by the Jews.

But the fiction of Palestinian Arab nationality is still being exploited. If the Palestinians were in fact a separate nationality then their anger over the past 20 years would have been directed as much against Jordan and Egypt as against Israel, for it was the invading armies of these countries which captured, in the 1948 war, a substantial portion of the territory allotted under the United Nations' plan to the Palestinian Moslems. This included the West Bank, which was occupied by the Jordanian Army, and added to their Kingdom, and the Gaza Strip, which was seized by the Egyptians.

The one people that have, in fact, maintained its historic connection with the area called “Palestine,” over a period of 2,000 years, is the Jews. Of course, the Bible never uses the term “Palestine”, but prefers to call this land “Judah” or “Israel”.

Indeed, the Jewish right to the land of Israel is not based only on history and the Bible, but is claimed by the physical process of work invested in transforming it into an area capable of supporting life. It is the fruits of this work that motivate mythological Arab claims to the territory.

Source: HERE 


posted by sam444 on March 16, 2012 at 6:13 AM | link to this | reply

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