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Unfortunately, human nature - no matter how spiritual, can be more self focused than others focused; applies to governments as well - my humble opinion.

posted by janey_ on January 12, 2010 at 9:49 PM | link to this | reply

The humanist position’s common in the study of history. There might be a common thread in the social issues. We all hope that the human race will help itself love. KBC-A, Bill’s RJLst

posted by BC-A on January 12, 2010 at 5:42 PM | link to this | reply

Thank you everybody for your comments.

We could discuss these complex issues endlessly and still not reach an agreement about how to solve them satisfactorily for all involved parties.

posted by elinjo on January 12, 2010 at 10:30 AM | link to this | reply

Elinjo

As an observer of political and social realities, I do not blame the migrants for trying - neither can I blame countries at the receiving end of that 'flux' for trying to stem it. 

In spite of attempts to render it unfashionable, particularly in Europe, it is still legitimate to take the position that a nation state is entitled to make decisions about important matters such as immigration, which have wide-ranging repercussions for a country's social and economic well-being. Particularly illegal immigration.

And when it comes to Africa, we (i.e. the West), have failed Africa not so much by being stingy with aid, we haven't been, but by allowing most of that aid to end up in the pockets of totally corrupt African politicians. There is an extensive literature on that fact. Just as an example (because it happens to be sitting on my desk as I write this) is Dambisa Moyo's 'Dead Aid', that should be read by anyone with an interest in these matters...

And when I mentioned Israel's achievements and aid work I wasn't suggesting that you weren't aware of that - I mentioned it to remind the other participants in what I knew would become another debate...

And to Hack:

The analogy between any Israeli walls and the Berlin Wall is flawed.

Without going into details for which I don't have the time, there is a vast difference between a wall intended to keep people in and one intended to keep people out - at the very least it's the difference between the walls of a prison and those of a house.

Any walls Israel has constructed so far, and any she will construct in future, are like the walls of a house - to keep the inhabitants safe, not caged! And it has worked - the number of terrorist attacks on Israel is way down; as are the rocket attacks from Gaza, incidentally, after the successful police action, which was never a 'war'...

 

 

posted by Nautikos on January 12, 2010 at 8:56 AM | link to this | reply

We could learn from history--interesting perspective Betty! Will catch up on your previous posts now--I've hardly been online (computer woes!) so there's a lot of reading/writing to do now! Will mail soon! Love, Nita.

posted by Nita09 on January 12, 2010 at 8:42 AM | link to this | reply

No walls.

We are all people of the same planet, why do we insist on pissing each other off? Building a wall? How stupid. the Berlin Wall didn't do any good and ultimately, fell, The "iron curtain, or wall, lasted a long time, but it too, crumbled. Even Josuha knocked down the walls of Jericho. No walls. Great post Betty.

posted by Hackthorne19 on January 12, 2010 at 5:19 AM | link to this | reply

Re: Elinjo for Nautikos

I wonder whether you had the time to click on the link and read the BBC article about this wall?

 It had as much to do with the infiltration of illegal immigrants on the most southern part of the border between Israel and Egypt. It was about people from various African countries trying to get a foothold in a more prosperous country. IMO The article was in no way critical of the Israeli government's decision; it reported it. 

On reading the article I put it into context with all the other news items that appear on a daily basis about desperate people fleeing to more prosperous parts of the world. The problem is that the countries they want to enter either do not want more immigrants or they want to select the most capable - green card system. In this way these countries are incidentally contributing to a brain-drain.Who can blame any country for throwing up their hands in horror and saying: no, we cannot cope!

 From the migrants point of view irrespective of whether they can offer specialized skills or not, they want a chance to get a better life. Irrespective of how many walls are constructed they will go on trying to enter in the hope of a better life.

 As a Jew with a certain amount of background knowledge about Israel, an admiration for its achievements and an appreciation of the aid it has given to less developed countries I was taken aback by your comment;I get the impression that you  misunderstood my post.

 

posted by elinjo on January 12, 2010 at 1:23 AM | link to this | reply

It seems to me it hasn't been that long ago that another wall was torn down. Being a Canadian, I'm not supposed to know much keeping out immigants...I'll just watch and learn, I guess...Interesting post, Elinjo.

posted by adnohr on January 11, 2010 at 7:49 PM | link to this | reply

I cringe at the thought of walls being put up at the borders. Then again, as a person whose location in the country is no where near the borders I cannot say it with 100% confidence.

posted by FormerStudentIntern on January 11, 2010 at 3:38 PM | link to this | reply

I have no answer to that Betty but I believe you are wiser than the politicians I know.

posted by shobana on January 11, 2010 at 2:59 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Gapcohen and Nautikos

Certainly the topic of this blog  should be taken in context with other events happening in many, many countries of the world, including Europe, the U.S.A., Australia and Israel. It is impossible to stop the poor in the world trying to infiltrate other countries; that is why I drew the analogy of the wise King Canute who tried to show his courtiers that even he was not able to do the impossible.

I am not villifying Israel at all. The Israeli government's decision to build this wall is just the latest similar example.

 

posted by elinjo on January 11, 2010 at 2:02 PM | link to this | reply

I am so with Naut on this one.  Egypt itself has put up a wall and barrier to keep Palestinians out (Egypt also shares a border with Gaza), because they are also concerned about security issues.  I believe in helping others, but not to the point (as Naut said)where they camp in our backyard and create problems.  (This has actually happened to us; we allowed a couple who were working on our house to stay in a tent on our property and they overstayed their welcome to the tune of nearly a year.  It was tough getting them out and they were drunk and disorderly much of the time.  So, there are always two sides to an issue).  That you take issue with Israel specifically is puzzling to me, Elin.  That put-upon nation is harbor of last resort to oppressed non-Jewish Sudanese who walk thousands of miles to get there.  Once there, they are cared for and fed. If you want to vilify a country for closing its borders to migrants, try the USA. Cubans and Mexicans have a hell of a time getting in!  Mal

posted by gapcohen on January 11, 2010 at 1:45 PM | link to this | reply

Interesting post

and debate.

I believe in God so know that we are not in control of our own destiny; the magic is that we don't know where that destiny lies

posted by malcolm on January 11, 2010 at 12:14 PM | link to this | reply

Elinjo

Judging by the other comments, I can tell that I will definitely be in the minority here, LOL... 

First of all, the analogy between the tidal forces of the sea and the migration of human populations breaks down quickly when we remind ourselves that the forces motivating humans are rather different from the ones that 'motivate' water molecules...

Israel has created a garden out of what was largely a desert, which is the result of its culture. That Israel has more groceries than Egypt (or anyone else in the region, except maybe for some of the oil states) again is the result of its culture. Conversely, that Egypt has fewer groceries is also the result of its culture, among them being the fact that it is a Muslim culture. And that's not just Naut's View, but one widely held by many others who have studied history in general and the history of the region in particular...

Now, it is of course understandable that grocery-less Egyptians want to cross the border to the Promised Land illegally to acquire some of those groceries. But it is equally understandable and defensible that the Israelis do not cherish the thought of permitting unchecked illegal immigration of grocery-seekers who may well be hostile towards the country into which they want to move... 

I hold these views not because of a heartless disregard for human suffering. Yet I often see that well-meaning people allow their compassion to swamp their better understanding. However, I am not one of those who believe that, in oder to help the poor you have to let them put up tents in your backyard...

(In fact, and just in passing, Israel is doing a hell of a lot of aid work in the region, something which is rarely commented on in our mainstream media, hostile to Israel as many are...)

So here's the bottom line: If Israel belives it needs a wall of some sort to keep the illegals out, go for it...

posted by Nautikos on January 11, 2010 at 8:18 AM | link to this | reply

what would anyone say about the decisions of those  that run the countries

posted by Lanetay on January 11, 2010 at 7:22 AM | link to this | reply

It's unreasonable for politicians and people who want to hang on

to the status quo (by keeping immigrants on the other side of some cartographer's line on a map) to expect that humans won't go where the groceries are so they can feed their families. Laws and customs are well and good, but nature, including human nature, doesn't always recognize those arbitrary decisions by those "in power."

posted by Pat_B on January 11, 2010 at 7:12 AM | link to this | reply

Borders that are blocked prevent us from what is our obligation from the Lord ~ to minister to the poor! Just a humble thought! Shelly

posted by sam444 on January 11, 2010 at 6:50 AM | link to this | reply

Elinjo

I suppose he would have had his throne carried to the border and simply instructed the "wave" of people to cease.....

posted by Troosha on January 11, 2010 at 6:39 AM | link to this | reply

Re: You are far wiser than any politician that I am aware of, my friend.

Guy! Let's do that! Utopia here we come! Thanks for visiting.

posted by elinjo on January 11, 2010 at 6:23 AM | link to this | reply

You are far wiser than any politician that I am aware of, my friend.

posted by northsage_45 on January 11, 2010 at 5:41 AM | link to this | reply