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Great links.
Everyone has said it all. Thanks for sharing, Betty.
posted by
Hackthorne19
on January 4, 2010 at 9:57 PM
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Elinjo,
Thank you for this chance to express my views.
posted by
LizaM
on January 4, 2010 at 7:29 PM
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Have you studied the Old Testament?
And the vengeance and violence therein?
Very strangely, The Christian (self declared, though it is hard to see how they do so) zealots I refer to justify their quest for domination on literal interpretations of it, not the New Testament. You see, living amongst and thusly knowing such people does have an importance in understanding extremism in all its different forms. And understanding moderation; again, both which exist regardless of religion.
I do respect the time and effort put into scholarly pursuit on any subject.
I guess we have to agree to disagree, as they say.
posted by
LizaM
on January 4, 2010 at 7:27 PM
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I tell you Elinjo - I appreciate the links and all - but my main interest is the terrorism within our own borders - Coming from all religions, beliefs...it's the heinous acts of violence that's perpetrated on innocent (victims) people, families, children right here in our USA...and of course, other countries...but in my back yard perse, within a stones throw (if you will) I pray it would all stop - all of it. With no disrespect, but that's my belief -- I pray all forms of terrorism just stop period. I am, as I've been told, an altruistic, idealistic, romantic at heart and I love God - Thank you for your links and your continued support of your beliefs. I respect you...and I appreciate all you offer us; it's enlightening. Elyse
posted by
elysianfields
on January 4, 2010 at 7:15 PM
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Imagine how bright the rainbow colors would be if many more people participated and really listened to these type of discussions?
posted by
adnohr
on January 4, 2010 at 5:33 PM
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Sorry Nautikos.
posted by
afzal50
on January 4, 2010 at 5:31 PM
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I agree with Nauticos .
posted by
afzal50
on January 4, 2010 at 5:30 PM
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It was good to read the statement! The song was so well done, captivating! Shelly
posted by
sam444
on January 4, 2010 at 4:33 PM
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I'm glad to read that it is being condemned.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on January 4, 2010 at 3:55 PM
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Wishing you peace too
posted by
malcolm
on January 4, 2010 at 2:13 PM
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Re: LizaM
Exactly! Dogmatic fundamentalist opinions can crop up in all religions and can have a great influence on political and social life.
posted by
elinjo
on January 4, 2010 at 2:10 PM
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Just come home and pleased to see that such an interesting discussion continues. No doubt you will not be surprised to hear that the same type of discussion is going on in Denmark.
If we would like to see a Muslim reformation we need to give moral support to those Muslims who are potentially willing and able to initiate it. One way of doing it in my opinion is to notice and value statements such as the one I've quoted today.
Wishing you all the very best.
posted by
elinjo
on January 4, 2010 at 2:04 PM
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Re: LizaM
You certainly haven't offended me, and I am sure you haven't offended Elinjo by your comment.
Let me be absolutely clear on this: as many people here know, I am an atheist and not interested in defending Christians. And I agree that Christians politicize their religion, and have through the millennia!
However, in doing so they cannot invoke the New Testament! They cannot claim that God ordered them to slay non-Christians! Nor, indeed, do I see a global Christian 'crusade', for which there also would be no biblical justification, of course.
But I do see a global jihad, demanded by the Koran, even if, particularly in Sufism, it is seen as a purely inner, personal struggle to overcome sin. But the violent form of jihad, which seeks to subject the world to Allah's rule (and hence to Muslim rule) is the form which is accepted and preached in many of the mosques of the world...
By the way, I also know some wonderful Muslims - hell, I have Muslim friends and I've even got one in the family!
And I also disagree with your assumption that it is enough to 'know people' - we all 'know people.' Scholarship does have its value, it does sometimes lead to a clearer understanding of the world, or at least some of the things in it...
posted by
Nautikos
on January 4, 2010 at 10:39 AM
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It doesn't require scholarship of any religion to know people - who they are, their value systems - actions speak volumes. And I know moderate, good intentioned Christians alongside those who proclaim to be Christian and possess and pursue a radical interpretation of the words. Domination via loss of rights, church in-state is their goal. And this includes violence, if need be. They politicize their beliefs continuously - The Christian Right and/or the Christian majority is intimately connected to the Republican Party - has been for years.
And I know moral, moderate Muslims - my doctor is Muslim and I am also a friend of hers. She is more trustworthy and respectful of all life - in word and deed - than some of my own family members or neighbors. And she is not the exception.
The ways in which a religious text is interpreted is the key - not the religion itself.
My experience/perspective.
Hope not to have annoyed anyone.
posted by
LizaM
on January 4, 2010 at 9:19 AM
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Elinjo
One of the problems is that people just don't know Islam. They have never read the Koran, nor any of the Hadith, nor the vast body of literature dealing with it. As a result, they are really not in a position to judge, although they do so of course anyway; it's not uncommon for people to talk about things they don't understand...LOL
For Muslims to say that this attack (or any form of violence) is against Muslim ethics is, at best, a half-truth. At best, it is against the ethics of some, possibly even many, Muslims, but not all Muslims, not against the ethics of those which I categorize, for shorthand purposes, as Islamo-Fascists, and who can justify their actions by directly invoking the 'sacred' texts!
Because the absolutely critical point is that this Islamo-Fascism is embedded in the Islamic scriptures! And those who dont believe that should take the trouble and study these texts, as I have done.
In other words, and what people don't understand, is that throughout history Islam has not just been 'just another religion', but one that has a political agenda built in, as part of scripture, and is thus in reality a religio-political ideology!
Ultimately, the solution to the problem posed by Islamo-Fascism is a reformation of Islam, but that can only begin if moderate Muslims begin to speak out en masse and repudiate what must be repudiated...
But I ain't holdin' my breath...
posted by
Nautikos
on January 4, 2010 at 8:32 AM
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yes colors that we could do without
posted by
Lanetay
on January 4, 2010 at 7:53 AM
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Well conveyed, Elinjo!
Violence and extremism are not limited to one religion or culture, but so many seem to think they are. I live in an area that is home to several militia groups and when the Oklahoma City bombings occurred, the first general reaction as far as they were concerned was one of finger pointing in other directions - the bombers were distraught and bitter over the government's deadly actions at Waco, Ruby Ridge and pushed over the edge by an out of control state - no real condemnation of the act was heard until later, when it became obvious the majority of people were horrified at the loss of life, especially the numbers of children and babies involved. And yet, there was little outcry about their attitude or little remembrance of it. One starts to feel as though ill will toward all Muslims is based in racism.
posted by
LizaM
on January 4, 2010 at 7:15 AM
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I love that sentence "many colors paint the rainbow"
it is great to hear that a lone few muslim orgs condem such behavior. I wish it were that easy to stop the madness of the sheyat and other terror organizations. But sadly that is just not enough to protect us from that growing evil :(. I find it more than a little scary that the focus is on the attempted murder and the trivial details that nobody should be hearing instead of the evil that fuels those acts that needs to be eradicated. Its like when you need a root canal you obsess on the pain rather than removing the root. Thanks for the update,and important info. you are providing an important services to us who dont know what goes on in other parts of the world.
posted by
Tzippy
on January 4, 2010 at 6:41 AM
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