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Gomedome
I appreciate your reply and certainly accept the last part about the unhealthiness of religious attitudes and behavior; yes, often really destructive and awful.
I also see better where you are coming from and that is helpful too. One of the things I am not so sure about, but too tired right now to go into it (neither am I any sort of authority on the matter) is how art, etc. is involved with myth. I think it is somehow. So either I'll get back to you on that or we can put it on the back burner.
But all in all I thought your response was elucidating.
Raphael
PS. I think I am a realist, too, by the way; but I don't think that label means I can't believe in God. But I also agree that labels are usually unhelpful. Let's just assume we are both human beings and leave it at that.
posted by
Raphael222
on July 2, 2009 at 3:54 PM
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Raphael222 - you meander through a handful of irrelevent truths
Certainly there are "mysteries" or a lot that we cannot explain about the world around us, at least not explain yet but what does this have to do with end times mythology? It is also true that it is a penchant of the majority of our species to want a God of some sort to exist. There is no disputing these things but is it a reasonable statement to suggest that creative and artistic works are an offshoot of mythology? I don't think that it is.
If you are going to use labels, I prefer "realist" over "materialist" and to clarify: I have never said that there is anything wrong with the tendency of people to utilize timeworn mythologies to provide answers for themselves to the unknown. There is however a lot wrong with the promotion of irrational religious constructs when the underlying message is decidedly unhealthy towards the rest of society. Which ultimately was what this post was about.
posted by
gomedome
on July 1, 2009 at 11:29 PM
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Re: Raphael222 - This is merely just another take on a oft used theme
"The stories themselves can be examined from many different perspectives, gleaning information about human tendencies, behavior and the history of our species as we have come to understand the world around us. If that was what you meant in your comment, I am in full agreement but any significance beyond that I have a hard time acknowledging." Quote by gomedome.
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I perfectly respect your take on these things, but I cannot understand why this materialist position held by you and others should be so rigidly dogmatic? Surely you must see that there are inexplicable mysteries which cannot be understood or discovered by the science of reasoned thought (i.e. logic).
It is these things that mythology supplies to satisfy the mind's deep need for some sort of explanation, even if it is a fanciful and imaginative story. While the story may not be true in the physical world, it contains an element which satisfies in some way the need for man to know, believe, praise and wonder at the extraordinariness of life and existence. If the myth, through ritual, rite, dance and trance and whatever, does not produce the sense of reaching the 'mystery' and somehow contacting it, it fades or is changed to adapt to meet the new needs of the people.
Myth (or religion in a broader sense) satisfies an essential part of what it means to be human. As Socrates said:
- Man is a religious animal.-
Why should this be so bad an idea, even for a rationalist.? If man was a pure reasoning spirit, there may be some difficulties. But the very nature of man is partly 'irrational'. By this, I do not mean man is crazy. I mean that myth and its offshoots: song, poetry, drama, stories, epics, art are not necessarily 'rational' yet provide for man something essential in his 'spiritual diet' so to speak, that pure reason can never do.
If people only believe in 'myth' and never exercise their reason, they too, in my opinion, are falling short of being 'a complete human being.' They remain in a childlike state and are thus, predictably, exploited by crafty priests, corrupt and worldly men and others.
With best wishes, gomedome,
Raphael
posted by
Raphael222
on July 1, 2009 at 12:39 PM
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Re: As a young child I sure could have lived without all the anxiety
mysteria - exactly, add that anxiety to a long list of other unhealthy byproducts that come from proliferating the notion of an end times scenario. In terms of the deleterious effects on a society, it is entirely a net loss with virtually no gain.
posted by
gomedome
on July 1, 2009 at 11:08 AM
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As a young child I sure could have lived without all the anxiety
produced by the end of the world scenario...
posted by
mysteria
on July 1, 2009 at 5:46 AM
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Raphael222 - This is merely just another take on a oft used theme
". . . are understood by those who study these things, to contain deep truths which the rational mind with its logical reasoning was never meant to address."
What you are effectively saying is that in order to understand "these things" one must dumb it down and become irrational if they do not possess these limitations in the first place. I am certain however that you did not mean to say this but these words are just another take on an attempt to imply that some folks get it, while others don't get it. Now the people that "study these things" is the interesting part; would that be the Vatican, an institution that still to this day endorses exorcism, or would that be people such as Rick Warren who can somehow magically tell us what happens to us when we die?
A question does arise from your comment when you suggest that myth has some significance, or as you put it a; "place in the human condition" . . . which aspects of mythology are vitally important? The stories themselves can be examined from many different perspectives, gleaning information about human tendencies, behavior and the history of our species as we have come to understand the world around us. If that was what you meant in your comment, I am in full agreement but any significance beyond that I have a hard time acknowledging.
posted by
gomedome
on June 30, 2009 at 10:20 AM
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End times...
It occurred to me as I read your latest take on things spiritual and religious that, looked at from the point of view of personal mortality,
everyone is in the "end times," in a sense.
The "end times" considered like this is the day of your death, and personal beliefs may well determine in some way 'what happens then.' From what I have read, second-hand, about the nature of deepest reality, in the quantum world personal decisions can have an effect on the objective field.
Another thing I have been wanting to mention to you about several of your posts is that mythological concepts and thinking (fairy stories as you put it) are understood by those who study these things, to contain deep truths which the rational mind with its logical reasoning was never meant to address.
Great scholars like Joseph Campbell, Carl Jung and more recently Karen Armstrong in her book: A History of God, explain the difference between logos and mythos, two entirely different (but complimentary ways of perception and thinking about reality) which is materialistic, but also non-physical in its totality. When people consider mythological stories literally (which is what most of your criticism seems aimed at) then it certainly does not make any sense. But not to give myth its place in human te human condition and mind, to my way of thinking, is to miss out on something vitally important.
Peace to you.
Jonathan
posted by
Raphael222
on June 29, 2009 at 5:53 PM
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YEAH - I WAS INVOLVED WITH THE HERBERT W. ARMSTRONG
cult.
It was based mainly on that "end of the world" and "second coming" belief. Without that, it would have been just another cult. Once 1976 came and went and nothing happened, things fizzled -- I was out with the 1973 schismj tho so didn't see the disappointment on people's faces.
Although it was an outgrowth of Seventh Day Adventist belief, it took things a bit farther, and it was pretty much personality based.
But it's a shame that people have to hinge their lives on predicted disaster that never pans out.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 29, 2009 at 5:12 AM
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