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Foliage
LOL! Easy on the Merlot...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 3:28 PM
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Naut: Part X
I thought I made comments here? Have had too much Merlot already? hic Back after dinner, Momma's hungry! This truly was facinating! Thanks so much! --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 29, 2007 at 2:45 PM
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Wiley - I've had the opportunity to read Naut's "Islamic Tsunami".
I found the content fascinating. Whilst I amuse myself at the paranoia expressed about possible European cultures/ societies disappearing because of low birth rate ratios, and the emigrating patterns of muslims, isn't it possible that that Europeans/ Americans themselves are turning to Islam instead of muslims emigrating elsewhere?
The "Islamic Tsunami" survey and conclusions gives me great satisfaction that Islam, for a "primitive" religion, is spreading so rapidly, and the fact that it gives you nightmares ! And the cherry on top is, there's not a damn thing you can do about it!
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 16, 2007 at 5:40 AM
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Nautikos
I only disagree with your statement that muslims are coming for a better life. A better life for them would have been if they'd had the gonads to stay where they were and moved themselves to change themselves.
Further, and I think you alluded to this in one of your blogs, they are coming here to eventually take this society over, also the European society and anywhere else they emigrate to, and there only goal is to change all societies and have us all live back in the 12th or 13th century.
posted by
WileyJohn
on April 13, 2007 at 9:25 AM
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shadow-pen
Wiley.Coyote
I have read your interesting comments which gives me a fascinating insight of your thought processes. I conclude that it would be very difficult to trade with you rational & logical arguments because it's very obvious that your mindset is totally, without exception, very biased againts all muslims.True, agreed.
My only point I wisg to make, as a muslim, is that I live in a non-Islamic country, South Africa, and I am happy here because I have the freedom to practice my religion here. I am happy to pay my taxes, accept and live by the country's constitution, and I might add, that is what the Shariah demands of me as a citizen of a non-Islamic state. I would personally never want to emigrate to North America, because largely, the decadent Western lifestyle would undermine my Islamic values. I am happy for you, and now will muslims attempt to turn that society backwards into a muslim style racism?
A lifestyle which promotes prostitution, woman abuse, gun abuse, abortion, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, parent abuse, child abuse, and which supports invading sovereign states killing innocent citizens in the name of Western Democrasy, is definitely not my cup of tea. No thank you very much, i'm not interested in emigrating to North America. You have keep it by all means.Thank you for making my point about muslims, y'all think you are God. Great you are not immigrating to North America, now tell your confrere's about your wonderful decision, and hopefully they will follow your advice. Whatever, I hope they don't fly here again.
Posted by on April 13, 2007 at 1:14 AM
posted by
WileyJohn
on April 13, 2007 at 9:18 AM
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Nautikos- Thanks for your reply. I will endeavour to read your other
posts.
I am just a bit perturbed , reading your comment above, that, as an outsider looking in,
your central theme seem to "Islam bashing", which comes from your obvious bias against the many issues which you have Islamicly linked.
As a peace-loving, decent human being I also abhor the taking of inncocent lives, the forcing of doctrines upon others, mass murderers, radical factions, BUT I do not isolate bad deeds performed by individuals or sects by their religious beliefs and start spitting poison at the religion eg. Christianity, Islam, Jewish. To cite a case in question: I will not go Christian bashing for what catholic priests did in sexually abusing young boys. This is because I respect the majority of upstanding & peace loving Christians, and will not paint them all with the same brush.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 13, 2007 at 3:23 AM
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Wiley.Coyote
I have read your interesting comments which gives me a fascinating insight of your thought processes. I conclude that it would be very difficult to trade with you rational & logical arguments because it's very obvious that your mindset is totally, without exception, very biased againts all muslims.
My only point I wisg to make, as a muslim, is that I live in a non-Islamic country, South Africa, and I am happy here because I have the freedom to practice my religion here. I am happy to pay my taxes, accept and live by the country's constitution, and I might add, that is what the Shariah demands of me as a citizen of a non-Islamic state. I would personally never want to emigrate to North America, because largely, the decadent Western lifestyle would undermine my Islamic values. A lifestyle which promotes prostitution, woman abuse, gun abuse, abortion, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, parent abuse, child abuse, and which supports invading sovereign states killing innocent citizens in the name of Western Democrasy, is definitely not my cup of tea. No thank you very much, i'm not interested in emigrating to North America. You have keep it by all means.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 13, 2007 at 1:14 AM
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Wiley
well, Muslims came (and are coming) to North America for the same reason all other immigrants come - to look for a better life. I don't think they 'hate life', but many of them hate our way of life, and would prefer that we adopted theirs. And because we are so nice and 'politically correct' that we won't say boo to a goose, we bend over backwards to accommodate them. And that emboldens them further. It's all part of that multi-cult thing introduced by Pearson and Trudeau...
And the issue of war is also interesting. When we are speaking of 'asymmetrical' war, we are not talking of the type of war fought throughout much of history and the first half of the 20th century. There are important qualitative changes, and maybe there is another series here...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 12, 2007 at 8:10 PM
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Nautikos
Well I have followed your work along here since you started I think, and I have to say I did it to try understand some things.
At my age now, all I can contribute from my own mind is that I have no idea why Muslims even came to north America in the first place.
Personally I think they are spreading out across other parts of the world, ~like Europe,America, Canada,Thailand, Pakistan,~ to try to make as huge a mess of other countries as they made of their own. Quite simply, they hate life.
My thoughts are that we have no business being over in either Iraq or Afghanistan at all, we should all come back here to North America, ship all the muslims back to where the hell they should be, and let one faction kill off the other like they were doing and want to do.
We think we are fighting a war? Nonsense. We are fighting on one side of a religion against the other side, when all the time, we should have left them alone to sort it out for themselves and minded our own affairs.
Now if Bush had gone exclusively after Osama from the beginning, just because of 9/11, this BS would be done now.
Now to me, it is all a lose, lose situation for us.
We are not even paying attention to 'The Art of War.'
"So there are five ways of knowing who will win. Those who know when to fight and when not to fight are victorious. Those who discern when to use many or few troops are victorious. Those whose upper and lower ranks have the same desire are victorious. Those whose generals are able and are not constrained by their governments are victorious. These five are the ways to know who will win."
I think that pretty well describes the Taliban. It,s time to surround North America with our own, folks that can practice their faith or not as they choose.
Anybody else that kills civilian men,women and children because of some cockamamy belief that belongs in hell, get them out of here.
That's what education does for me.
posted by
WileyJohn
on April 12, 2007 at 5:27 PM
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shadow-pen
you're asking a lot! My agnosticism is a very complicated matter, even to me. But this series is rather self-explanatory, I would have thought. I am adopting a very objective position here, from the outside, looking in, as it were. And this is what I see.
Having said that, I cannot divest myself of the fact that I am a Westerner, and, although I live in North America, I am a European North American, in the sense that I have the European culture, its traditions, its literature, its philosophy, its poetry and its music in my veins. Which also includes the immensely rich Christian tradition, which I cherish even if I do not believe in the God of the Bible.
It is my conviction that especially Arab culture as been stifled by Islam. And that is not just my view but even Arabs would agree. Here is just one example:http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/Nautikos/419277
In that sense I am not free of bias. My bias is against those Muslims who migrate to Europe and North America and demand to live under shariah law, and who oppose the separation of church (or mosque) and state Against those who preach hatred of the infidels in their madrassahs and mosques, in Britain, on the Continent and right here in the US and in Canada. Most of these schools are run by Wahhabis.
My bias is against those millions of Muslims who fail to speak out against what is being done in the name of Islam. My bias is against those Muslims who take to the street when the Pope quotes a 15th century Greek's view of Islam (which in my view is correct), but stay at home when Ahmadinejad says that Israel must be wiped off the map...
If you want to know more about me, read more of my posts in 'View', which is my serious side. If you're interested in finding out even more about me, read my posts in 'Thoughts' and even my new one , where you will discover a different side.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 12, 2007 at 11:39 AM
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Nautikos - I am trying very hard to understand where you are coming from
and where you are going to with your post & arguments which you have put forth. I know you are not a Christian, nor belong to any other universal religion. You are a self proclaimed agnostic. So please help me understand your agnostic viewpoints by telling me more about yourself, your beliefs in what agnostic stands for, why you believe being an agnostic makes for a better life for you, the positive sides etc, putting aside all criticism of other religions and God. Also putting aside comparing the Christianity with Islam and the Bible with the Quran. You could email me at ydarries@mto.co.za should you prefer. I look forward to further communication from you. Thanks.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 11, 2007 at 7:52 AM
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Naut
This is all so fascinating! I'm going to have to start at the beginning on a morning when I'm bright-eyed. Great work! --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 10, 2007 at 12:42 PM
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drohan
As far as I can tell, you're making my argument for me...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 9, 2007 at 1:52 PM
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i did not see your sentence about inadequate english .i don't have much time to read this is a very fast answer ..and for you and other who are with same thoughts yes iam proud that this is my second language but i guess iam better than most of you if this is your first language so may be i will leave my work to sit for you and your birds ..till now my dear i didn't start answering you scientifically and logically don't worry i'm more stronger than you
in that as i believe but for you not this is only chatting the serious talk will be coming on the way mr neautikus,,,,,,,,,,,, and do not worry nothing shakes me ..even if i don't know your english language
posted by
drohan254
on April 8, 2007 at 3:23 PM
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again my dear you make smile and again i have to get up 0500h and it is 0210h npw so the answer is simple the quraan not behind that all theses came due to political issues so you can read politics then you can understand and you care for your israeli children and your blind eyes don't see the palesteninan children who killed daily and by the way iam palesteninan so wait my fresh stories ..........you and your blind people who see one side of the stories by your attacking us and allowing us from taking little right is pushing them to do more ....when a small child lose his home his land his father and mother what you expect them to do .............thanks for you to open the way for writing about the daily suffering of palestenian ..can you tell me from where you are to whom you blong if you dare ...later will be continued peace maker or terorism maker people
posted by
drohan254
on April 8, 2007 at 3:07 PM
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drohan
I do not have any 'bad goals'. My aim is to understand why Muslims want to establish theocracies; why Muslims want to introduce shariah law in countries not their own; why Muslims consider it moral to kill infidels; why Muslims fly planes into skyscrapers; why Muslims blow up ships; why Muslims blow up buildings; why Muslims encourage their children to become suicide bombers in order to kill Israeli children...And that's only the beginning. Having read the Koran, I understand it better than I understood it before. But understanding does not mean condoning it!
If you can refute anything I have said, or will be saying, for that matter, great. I am always prepared to revise my opinion. But if you're just babbling on about 'bad goals', debating things with you is of little use. That you don't make much sense may be due partly to your inadequate English, but I can't help you with that...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 8, 2007 at 6:23 AM
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neautikus....iam sorry that iam writting on this
holy days for christian ..if you are not christian neautikus so why you are interfering with christian and muslims religion ..i mean these people as you and other follower are not related to christian or islam but your aim is very dangerous you are the one who create all these hate and miss understanding between religions so we the muslims and sure most of the christian are refusing your interference ...AND FOR YOUR INFORMATION THAT GOD SAID THE MOST RELATED AND CLOSE TO MUSLIMS ARE CHRISTIAN THEY CAN EAT WITH THEM THEY CAN MARRY FROM THEM ETS ......SO IF YOU ARE A REAL WRITER
AND RE SEARCHER TELL THEM THAT THIS SAY IS NOT true .....YOU AND OTHERS WHO HAVE THE SAME BAD GOALS WHEN YOU READ QURAAN YOU DID THAT FOR THESE PURPOSES AND NOT TO UNDERSTAND ..YOU READ THE WEAK POINT WHICH YOU CONSIDER AS WEAKNESS AND OF COURSE I CHALLENGE YOU THAT IT HAS WEAK POINT IF YOU ARE BRAVE NEGOTIATE ONE OF THE SCHOLARS NOT US ..AND IT IS VERY STRANGE THAT YOU OR CP KLAPPER DENY FOR MUSLIMS TO DEFEND THEIR PROPHET AND THEIR RELIGION IF WE DO THAT WE DO IT TO AVOID YOUR POISONS WHICH CREATE DIFFERENCES AND HATE WE DO THAT TO BUILD LOVE INSTEAD OF THE UGLY HATE WHICH YOU PLANT BETWEEN RELIGIONS .... AND IT'S STRANGE THAT WHO CHEAT AND SPY ON HIS COUNTRY CONSIDERED SPY AND HE HAS TO BE BUNISHED BUT SULIMAN RUSHDI WHO CHEAT HIS RELIGION NOT ALLOWED TO BE PUNISHED ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION . WE SAY ALWAYS WHO DON'T HAVE PAST DO NOT HAVE FUTURE AND WHO IS NOT SINCERE TO HIS COUNTRY AND TO HIS RELIGION WILL NEVER BE SINCERE TO ANY OTHER THING OR BODY ..... AGAIN YOUR AND CP KLAPPER SIMPLE THOUGHTS REGARDING THAT KORAN IS A SATANIC VERSE ..IT JUST AMAZES ME THAT IF IT'S TRUE WHAT YOU SAID SO HOW SATAN CALL FOR DOING THE GOOD THING OR NOT TO KILL NOT TO CHEAT NOT TO MAKE SIN NOT AND MANY NOT OF THE HUMAN BEING SINS ..SO TELL ME HOW THE QURAAN CAN BE SATANIC VERSE
NOTE FOR ALL READER I RESPECT ALL RELIGION ALL BELIEVES I REPECT MY ENEMY BUT I WILL STAY SINCERE TO MY COUNTRY MY RELIGION WITH RESPECT TO OTHER AND FOR A DEAR FRIEND WHO SAID THE GOOD POET HAS TO BE AWAY FROM RELIGION DISCUSSION I SAY
YOU ARE RIGHT FRIEND BUT AS THE PEOPLE WHO ATTACKS MY RELIGIONS +OF COURSE MY NATION AS WE ARE VERY FEW MUSLIMS HERE SO TO PREVENT THEIR POISOPNS FROM DESTROYING OTHER FRIENDLY AND GOOD MINDS SO ME THE LADY THE WOMAN WHO THEY CLAimed that we are slave ..iam the free lady will stand for them and defend my religion and i will be always there for any human being will be attack un fairly and as i said some where thay i was writting love poems i tried to avoid religion and politics which i have so much to say about but your poisons force me now to answer you and your satanic fellowers and i will start later my writing so if you dare and you are aREAL WRITTER YOU COME AND DIUSCUSS ME ON MY BLOG WHEN I WRITE MR NEAUTIKUS
posted by
drohan254
on April 7, 2007 at 12:25 PM
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Nautikos
Your response to Shadow pen was a fantastic capsulated view much as I have of these two writings. Thank you so much for bringing this out in a very simplistic yet profound manner. Be blessed and enjoy a good week-end.
posted by
Justi
on April 6, 2007 at 10:51 PM
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shadow-pen
in response to your question: I know nothing about God. I only know that Mohammed claims to speak (or write) about the same God that is written about in the Old Testament as well as in the New Testament.
From my reading of these texts, it appears that Mohammed has dressed the God of the Old Testament in Arab garments. That's about the extent of it. The Koran is certainly not an improvement on the earlier mono-theistic texts. As a matter of fact, and although I am not a Christian, the Koran represents a retrograde development when compared to the New Testament.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 5, 2007 at 8:41 AM
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Gosh!!!I saw a reference to this post elsewhere
thought Id take a peep and I find a mini -war in progress.You certainly dont need my 5 cents.
posted by
proc
on April 5, 2007 at 5:52 AM
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Nautikos - I apologise in that the quote" verses were recorded on
available objects like rocks & bones.." was by Corbin.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 4, 2007 at 11:50 PM
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Nautikos - I fail to understand your reasoning - In one breath you imply
that Islam was primitive in its origins I quote" verses were recorded on stone & bones" when in truth the thousands of years earlier, events were recorded on parchments. Now you say there appears to be evidence that Muhmmed (pbuh) was well educated. Tell me, "by whom?"
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 4, 2007 at 11:46 PM
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Nautikos - I appeciate your viewpoints and conclude that I cannot
and will not try and change them. Just one question: Do you say thet the God of the Koran is a different God of the Bible, is a different God of the Torah etc.?
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 4, 2007 at 11:39 PM
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drohan and shadow-pen
I do not see much point in continuing this discussion, since you either cannot or do not want to understand the issue. I don't have to be told that there is all kinds of nasty stuff going on in the world. I know that. But I also know that none of that nastiness is sanctioned by the Bible, whereas there is a lot of nastiness taking place because it is sanctioned and demanded by the Koran.
If you are Muslims and believe the Koran is God's word, that's fine. As long as you accept that it is possible to understand the Koran as a collection of 7th century writings that have their origin in a sense of Arab frustration with being at the margins of the civilization of their day, and that were dressed up by Mohammed (and others) as 'the word of God' to give them added weight.
And some of those writings, as you probably know (but maybe not), writings that came to be seen as inconvenient at some point, where called 'Satanic Verses' and where dropped. And a writer like Salman Rushdie, who dared write about that, was condemned to death by Muslim clergy and had to live in hiding for years. Things like that happened in Christianity as well - five hundred years ago. In Islam they're happening today, because Islam is stuck in the Midde Ages.
Maybe the time has come for Muslims to go through the Koran and declare more verses as Satanic and drop them. And until that happens, I and many others will view Islam as a modern plague.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 4, 2007 at 5:06 PM
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Corbin
whether or not M. was illiterate appears to be in dispute, even among Muslims. There is some evidence that his being illiterate was advanced as proof that the stuff he came up with was really from God. But there appears to be counter evidence that he was actually well educated.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 4, 2007 at 4:26 PM
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thanks friend shadow you save some of my time as i don't have much from it you are right in your say ..i hope all will search for a new life a new understanding i will post my poem which i put it before about the hate and some fool nind which we have to clean it from it's dust by the love and understanding ..it will be continued always to reach an understanding i hope the people will work sincerley and from an honest heart ..thanks all
posted by
drohan254
on April 4, 2007 at 5:39 AM
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Nautikos - I understand it when you have issues with actions &
viewpoints with certain Islamic sects, people whom you refer to as "Radical Islam". I as a muslim, and I'm sure the majority of other peace loving muslims, do NOT agree with 9/11, and the viewpoints of Ardem Choudery. I watched him being interviewed on BBC and was deeply saddened, as a muslim, with what he was saying. I also feel very much aggrieved at the losses of innocent human lives, WHEREVER it happens on this earth.
AT the end of the day , I can also pose questions such as" Isn't the physical and mental abuse of women in a society who professes to be Westernised and Civilsed, BARBARIC ACTS?" You only have to compare the crime statistics from country to country to see what I mean, but I hope that is not what we are trying to achieve. I think, we, as tolerant and peace-loving human beings, can find common ground on which to change mindsets of hatred to where we can live together in harmony.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 4, 2007 at 2:14 AM
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Corbin - In Islam, women have different but equal rights - which will
take a long time to explain. Quick examples:(1) By shariah law, the earnings of a women is solely for her use only, her husband may not demand access to her earnings. She alone can decide to share her earnings with her family.(2) Inheritance rights- whatever a woman has inherited from her family cannot be touched by her husband.
There are so many other rights that women enjoy under Islam that men don't, but I would suggest that besides reading the Koran for whatever purpose you do, it will be worth the while to study further the rights of women in Islam and not, perhaps, confuse rights with customs. There were many, and perhaps still are, unfair customs that Islamic shariah came to change by means of law.
Thank you for your reply. I think after you do extensive research ,you mightl agree that Universal Islam may not be what some people might perceive as "Radical Islam".
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 4, 2007 at 1:42 AM
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And yes we know that he was illiterate....
And he recited the passages of the Koran to his followers who wrote them on any objects available such as rocks or bones..........
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 3, 2007 at 11:26 AM
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Corbin
I gotta run! You can deal with this...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 3, 2007 at 10:13 AM
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shadow-pen
the pressures of the day do not permit me to give you a detailed response.
Let me just address one issue or two: I am not arguing from a Christian point of view, because I am not a Christian. I am an agnostic, and the issue of God (or Allah) is completely irrelevant to me. I am arguing from the view point of a reasonably civilized and fairly well educated Westerner, who holds to certain fundamental principles of conduct and tolerance.
I read the Koran not because I wanted to hear the 'voice of God', but to read a text which is used to justify what I consider an intolerant world view as well as barbaric crimes.
And I am not here to excuse Christians. The past aside, whatever crimes are being committed by contemporary Christians are being committed in spite of the Bible, not because of it.
I also resent the unmitigated gall shown by Muslims who insist that sharia should be the law of the societies into which they have migrated. I deeply resent it when I encounter this:
"Anjem Choudary, a thirty-nine-year-old British Muslim Leader, hailed September 11 as 'magnificent' and its perpetrators as 'heroes'; he mocked the victims of the London Tube bombings, calls on Muslims to refuse to cooperate with the British police and advocates sharia for the United Kingdom. He and his wife are welfare recipients, but he's been able to rack up impressive frequent-flyer mileage, jetting off to liaise with like-minded Muslims in other countries.
On the BBC he was asked why he didn't simply move to a country that already had sharia. "Who says you own Britain anyway?" he replied. "Britain belongs to Allah. The whole world belongs to Allah." Warming to his theme, he added, " If I go to the jungle, I am not going to live like the animals. I am going to propagate a superior way of life. Islam is a superior way of life."
Finally, it is utter nonsense to say that Islam was around since time of Adam, and not only because there was no Adam. Islam began with the writings of Mohammed and others in the 7th century, and is partly based of his knowledge of the Old Testament.
It may well be that there are many fine Muslims. In fact, and as I have mentioned before, I know a few. But until Muslims en masse speak out against Islamo-fascism, which I equate with Radical Islam, even if you don't like that term, until such time I shall consider Islam a plague.
I hope you don't view this as a personal attack. But I want to make my position very clear.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 3, 2007 at 10:12 AM
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Nice Deflection.....
Simple question......
Are Muslim women equal to men in the majority of countries dominated by Islam? Socially, Financially, and legally???
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 3, 2007 at 9:44 AM
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Corbin - "Radical Islam" is a nicely coined phrase, maybe in the same
class as "Radical Jews", Radical Protestants", Radical Catholics" ( In Ireland)."Radical Christians" (those crazy sects that blows themselves to bits and pieces" Oh and how about
"Radical Western Capitalism", who endorsed women as sex slaves and legalised prostitution..and earn taxes for the state coffers...
need i go any further?
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 3, 2007 at 8:27 AM
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I for one am not referring as much to the past as the present........
Referring to history is only a source to show how the present developed as it has.......I still maintain that Radical Islam treats women as slaves.....I've seen no evidence to the contrary.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 3, 2007 at 5:26 AM
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Nautikos- I'm honestly sorry that all this has turned out into a
Christian vs Islam issue. Let not the Christians be the ones that throws the first stones because their history is tainted with atrocities by the Church and the Crusades in the name of religion. Why don't we all work towards a better and peaceful future for us and our offspring. Digging up the dirt of the past is the easiest but most destructive thing to do.
Just one more thing, Islam was not "founded" due to Roman conquest, Islam was in existence since the time of Adam , the subsequent prophets, to Jesus and Muhammed just came to put the seal on the religion. ALL prophets believed and came with the message that there was ONE GOD, none said there were more, and the basic foundation of ISLAM is CONSISTENT with that which all the prophets said. Refer also to my comment to cpklapper on slavery & Mohammed (pbuh).
I love a serious discussion also, but please let the facts be fair and not merely sections of verses quoted "out of context" to support an argument. There are many sincere Christian scholars of note that would disagree with you.
posted by
shadow-pen
on April 3, 2007 at 3:43 AM
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THANKS NEAUTIKUS IAM THESE DAYS REALLY BUSY WHEN I WILL BE FREE SURE I WILL READ MORE FOR YOU AND I WILL SHOW WHAT I KNOW AND WE CAN DISCUSS BUT I DON;T THINK THAT ANY GOD WORDS ENCOURAGE ANY SLAVERY...... IN EARLY ISLAM WERE FREE AFTER THEIR SALVERY ..FROM THEM BELAL WHO WAS PUNISHED FROM ARABIC WHO WERE NOT BELIEVNG IN MOHAMED ..+YASER AND BOTH HIS PARENTS WHO WERE FORCED TO LEAVE ISLAM BUT REFUSED THEY WERE THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO WERE KILLED DUE TO THERE BELIEVE AND BEFORE THAT THEY WERE SLAVE LATER I CAN TELL YOU ..SOME OF SURA EVEN MUSLIM THEY EXPLAIN IT IN OTHER MEANING AND IAM VERY SURE THAT GOD WILL NEVER ASK US TO DO WRONG BEHAVIOUR LATER I WILL CNTINUE
SOME WRONG ACTIONS WHICH IS GOING ON THESE DAYS AND BEFORE CAN'T BE RELAYED TO ISLAM IT IS DUE TO SOME WRONG BELIEVES
YOU CAN SEE MY COMMENTS ON MY BLOG FOR CPKLAPPER ...THANKS
posted by
drohan254
on April 3, 2007 at 2:16 AM
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Corbin
thanks for the assist. Always appreciated...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 2, 2007 at 7:27 PM
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Mark
thanks for your comment. I hope my response to drohan clarifies my position.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 2, 2007 at 7:26 PM
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drohan
Let me make this as plain as I can make it. It is obvious to me that you haven’t read the Koran very carefully. I would suggest you read 23:5, 33:50 and 33:52 (as Corbin has already pointed out), and all of 66, which is interesting for all kinds of reasons. It is the most self-serving bit of writing to be found anywhere [God allegedly castigating two of Mohammed’s wives for complaining about M.’s transgressions with a slave girl].
And it isn’t just about women. Read 4:92, where the penalty for killing a Muslim from a hostile tribe is ‘the freeing of one Muslim slave.’ Obviously, if the freeing of a slave, Muslim or otherwise, is a penalty, it follows that one must be allowed to own slaves.
Whatever practises Christians have in previous centuries engaged in, their slaves were never kept in the name of Christianity. Today, Arab Muslims are forcibly converting people and keep them as slaves in the name of Islam.
I must also tell you that I feel no ‘black hatred for Islam’, as you put it, but I am concerned about the Islamo-fascism that has gained a hold in many Muslim populations. I am concerned about the intolerance toward others, and especially other religions, which is found in many Muslim countries. I am concerned about the fact that the many millions, in fact, hundreds of millions of Muslims who are decent, law-abiding citizens of their countries and the countries into which they have migrated, have shown very little inclination to denounce the murderous Islamist bandits.
I wrote a short piece about this Muslim silence after the uproar over the Pope’s speech in which he quoted a view of the Koran which, I will admit, I have come to share. Here it is for those interested: http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/Nautikos/406432
I have several Muslim friends, great people who are embarrassed about many of the things that are being done in the name of Islam.
And I realize that Islam is not of one piece. The sectarian violence between Shiites and Sunnis that we witness daily is the best testimony to that. As you probably know, this hostility goes right back to the 7th century. But much of the current poisonous radicalism, the insistence on sharia law, the attempt to turn the world into medieval theocracy - this can be traced back to the writings of Sayyed Qutb, who was an inspiration to al-Zawahiri – you have heard of him, I take it?
Anyway, enough for now. If you can refute anything I have said here, I will gladly admit my error. And I can assure you, I bear you no personal animosity.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 2, 2007 at 7:25 PM
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Soooooo......
Since Allah sanctions slavery in the Koran, either slavery is right or Allah is wrong. Choose.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 2, 2007 at 5:24 PM
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Slavery is promoted in the Koran....
Slaves, most always female slaves for sex, are referred to in the Koran as "possessions of the right hands" of Muslim believers.
In Sura (chapter) 33 verse 50, Allah specifically approves of slavery, saying he has made it "lawful" for uto own and have sex with "those whom thy right hand possesses of those whom Allah has given you as spoils of war" - women captured in war and enslaved.
In Sura 33:52, Allah says he doesn't approve of men having sex with women other than their wives, except for "those whom thy right hand possesses." Allah says a man having sex with his slave girls is OK - even, by the way, if they are married to one of their owner's male slaves.
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 2, 2007 at 5:22 PM
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Top post as always
Reading through the comments between you and Drohan: I think there's a slight misunderstanding between you two. I think what Drohan is trying to say is that just because people who happen to be muslim practise slavery it does not mean that the religion itself should be blamed for this. And at the same time, I think he's failing to see that this is not the point you are making, but simply stating the fact that slavery is still practised by cultures that are (happen to be) Islamic. If I understand it correctly.
posted by
Mark_Simmons
on April 2, 2007 at 9:35 AM
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iam not free now to read my main point stop saying islam behind that
this is the main point ..and you solve your problems before solving others to be continued
posted by
drohan254
on April 2, 2007 at 6:54 AM
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i
wrote acomment for mr dallas but couldn't send it seem that some people just in need aword to show their black hate to islam ..mohamed said the bararadise under mothers feet ..mohamed said be kind with ladies mohamed said in answering one who asked him about parents he repeat three timeas to be kind with women or mother and once only about father ..more talk will be there ..and you are not in deputy of muslim ladies iam amuslim free mibnd and spirit and i don't need your defence and i don't need your freedom ..to be continued
posted by
drohan254
on April 2, 2007 at 6:51 AM
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Corbin
thanks! Maybe I should get into that topic! The trouble is, all this is turning into serious work...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 2, 2007 at 6:46 AM
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drohan
It is always a good idea to inform oneself before entering a debate. Here is something for your information, and it's just one little item, exemplifying the mass of material that is available:
Chattel slavery in Sudan
The enslavement of the Dinkas in southern Sudan may be the most horrific and well-known example of contemporary slavery. According to 1993 U.S. State Department estimates, up to 90,000 blacks are owned by North African Arabs, and often sold as property in a thriving slave trade for as little as $15 per human being.
"There he found several Dinka men hobbling, their Achilles tendons cut because they refused to become Muslims."
—from an ASI report on Sudanese slavery
| |
Animist tribes in southern Sudan are frequently invaded by Arab militias from the North, who kill the men and enslave the women and children. The Arabs consider it a traditional right to enslave southerners, and to own chattel slaves (slaves owned as personal property).
Physical mutilation is practiced upon these slaves not only to prevent escape, but to enforce the owners' ideologies. According to an ASI report: "Kon, a thirteen-year-old Dinka boy, was abducted by Arab nomads and taken to a merchant's house. There he found several Dinka men hobbling, their Achilles tendons cut because they refused to become Muslims. Threatened with the same treatment the boy converted."
In a detailed article by Charles Jacobs for the American Anti-Slavery Group (ASI), Jacobs recounts how a 10-year-old child was taken in a raid on her village in southern Sudan, and branded by her master with a hot iron pot.
This is were it's from http://www.infoplease.com/spot/slavery1.html
posted by
Nautikos
on April 2, 2007 at 6:43 AM
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So Islam no longer has slavery?
Sorry....but the treatment of women in most Islamic countries is nothing short of slavery. Women are nothing more than property....
Islamic fundamentalism establishes its thesis on the differences between the sexes and the conclusion that the male is superior, and hence, the female is a slave at his service. A parliamentarian in Iran is on record as saying, "Women must accept the reality of men dominating them, and the world must recognize the fact that men are superior." Ultimately, the fundamentalists do not believe women are human. One of the Iranian regime’s key ideologues says: "Women and men are equal in their humane essence, but they are two different forms of humans, with two different sets of attributes and two different psyches..."Mullah Mohammad Yazdi, the Head of the Iranian Judiciary, also emphasizes the subservience of women: "If kneeling before God were not obligatory, wives should have knelt before their husbands." He also said: "A woman is wholly the possession of her husband, and her public life is conditional upon her husband’s consent."
Naut.....an excellent topic got you....."Women in Islam"....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on April 2, 2007 at 6:05 AM
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sorry neautikus
if this happened eith some leaders ..you cant due this to islam because islam came to make all human being equal no difference betueen black and white rich or poor ..so what iam asking that to stop saying islam as it seem the aim is very bad and still i didnot finish my opinions ..if one of the christian leader behave badly i will not say due to christianity ..to be continued
posted by
drohan254
on April 2, 2007 at 5:53 AM
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OTA
thanks! Always nice to know that some people are still interested...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 1, 2007 at 5:27 PM
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drohan
thanks for your comments. The involvement of Muslims in the slave trade to North America is a historical fact beyond dispute by anyone who has studied history. So is the fact that Muslim rulers over the centuries enslaved many millions, mainly Africans but also Europeans, well into the modern era.
The pattern was different: while the male/female ratio of Africans shipped to the West Indies and North America was roughly 2:1, it was roughly 1:2 in the Arab world, since many women were used as concubines. Many of the males were used for military service.
My aim here is not to give you a history lesson, which is impossible (nor do I get paid for it, lol), but merely to suggest that you do some studying and read some of the relevant literature. University libraries have a wealth of material, and non-students can sometimes obtain library privileges as extra-mural readers.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 1, 2007 at 5:22 PM
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sorry for the mistakes iam supposed to get up at 0500h
and now it is 0200h again i hope you don't mind for the comments
posted by
drohan254
on April 1, 2007 at 2:52 PM
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nautikus again from your response to me it seem that you don't know the basic thing in islam
which was stpping slave as first one who believe in islam was blck and was slaved for arabs who didnot believe in god ...and for justi ..this is not slaving may be that bpys are only working as any body else ..guys when you say some thing you have to be responsible for it
as i said to yu still i don't know what exactly you want to say but let me say that we are the muslim we have to believe in jesus and all prophets till we will be atrue muslim and sure most of you don't know that ..so if you don't know things avoid to doscuss it this is for the readers ..i hope that yopu will be open minded as i will be thanks again
posted by
drohan254
on April 1, 2007 at 2:50 PM
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i meant muslim and islam came to free the slaved one that was happening before islam but the slaved were more in west and mainly america or what and for justi what she meant by the camel riders are they also slaves it is atraditional and national sport ...i don't have much time now but sure i will visit you because i have the full idea and the aim of this discussion if you are right i will support you if not i will argue you as we have to be honest in revealing or explaining any meaning from any words especially in religion and i don't know how much you you studied kuraan deeply ...i saw some were you wrote that this an old translation as isaw so many people are intrested but what behind that intrest i will watch and see then we can explain some of the simple things which i know ..so for the fashionated translation for kuraan ..i think it is not acceptable word as no fashion for kuraan it will stay as it is with out any correction or adding ..god promise to keep always kuraan as itis not ike other books .which was changes according to the wish of the polition or other purpose ....
one of islamic leader said he was amer bin alaas when he entered egypt ..when you have got the right to slave people while they were born free from their mother ..for that subject so many things that can be said later on ..thanks
posted by
drohan254
on April 1, 2007 at 2:39 PM
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Naut
There was a documentary but I can't tell you where now. These are indonesian boys and they are given only the minimum food to keep them alive so they can ridge the camels. It is a gambling thing and the people who run the boys homes for the Princes beat the children and they are hardly more than a guiding sack of sand. My husband and I were livid about it.
posted by
Justi
on April 1, 2007 at 2:26 PM
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Naut.. this is getting very interesting
"The Years of Rice and Salt" ..I want to read that one as well!!!!
posted by
Blue_feathers
on April 1, 2007 at 2:23 PM
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drohan
There is absolutely no doubt that Arab Muslims were very heavily involved in the slave trade, and are to some degree to this day.
posted by
Nautikos
on April 1, 2007 at 2:08 PM
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Justi
I hadn't heard about that one...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 1, 2007 at 2:03 PM
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Nautikos
It would be interesting to look into the children the Saudi Princes buy and starve as jockey's for their Camel racing. Yes they are still big in slavery of many sorts.
posted by
Justi
on April 1, 2007 at 3:13 AM
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i will comment on the last part then i will read the post again ..may be you ment arab people who were believing in the stone and the son who were slave ithers ..when islam came muslims gave freedom to all slaved one from them were the black ...this is first comment ..thanks
posted by
drohan254
on March 31, 2007 at 10:23 PM
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Foliage
thanks for the compliments. You might want to start at the beginning of the series, to see how my argument develops...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 8:03 PM
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CP
thank you very much for referring me to your excellent poem, and to the information on Cassius Marcellus Clay. I had not been aware of him and his work, but I am certainly glad to know of him now. As a Canadian, I hope I am forgiven for not having heard of him before...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 6:53 PM
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The irony is complete in the name Cassius Marcellus Clay
I reposted
Forgetful Times, where I refer to Cassius Marcellus Clay, Jr. and the irony and folly of spurning the memory of
the man his father was named after, who was the principal advocate of emancipation, in favor of two men who set the forces in motion that would lead to his ancestors being enslaved.
Carl Peter
posted by
cpklapper
on March 31, 2007 at 6:08 PM
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Naut
Oh my, you write so very well and with such an intelligent flair! I'm always in awe of Europe, the cultures, the people, the architecture, etc., whenever visiting. I've printed this out in its entirety to read as one. Good writing. My, my, my..... --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on March 31, 2007 at 4:47 PM
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Nautikos
Excellent post, as always, although I don't share your admiration for Cassius Clay - but that's okay, because we also have differing opinions on Bill Kristol!
posted by
Enigmatic68
on March 31, 2007 at 3:44 PM
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Pat B
Sounds interesting. Usually, I prefer sci to sci fi, maybe because I lack the necessary imgination, or maybe because I have often found the sci is sacrificed at the altar of the fi. But I shall add this to my growing list of 'To Be Read'...
In the most general sense, though, I have no doubt that we would live in a different world, and would view it with different eyes as well...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 1:55 PM
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TAPS
thanks. My term 'v. of f.' is a kind of shorthand for a lot of interesting stuff. The problem is that things get very technical very quickly...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 1:42 PM
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Director
I am still not certain what your question is about. My last statement is about slavery carried out by Muslims. Are you asking why that is the case, or why I make that statement?
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 1:36 PM
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you've raised some interesting what-ifs in this discussion...
what if Rome had conquered the Arab lands, for one... You just reminded me of a sci fi book by Kim Stanley Robinson "The Years of Rice and Salt" that goes at this idea from the reverse. Robinson's story begins with the premise that the black plague that killed of one third of the population in Europe in the 1300s killed 99% instead. To quote the back cover,
"Robinson navigates a world where Buddhism and Islam are the most influential
and practced religions, while Christianity is merely a historical footnote."
This book was a best seller in '02 -- and I highly recommend it. Lots of detail about daily life, religion, science, etc. told artfully.
posted by
Pat_B
on March 31, 2007 at 12:12 PM
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Nautikos
I find your "veil of familiarity" intriguing.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 31, 2007 at 9:40 AM
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TheDirector c/o Nautikos
Thank you. I will go back and read that part again.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 31, 2007 at 9:33 AM
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My question is in reference to the final statement in the commentary.
posted by
Jenasis
on March 31, 2007 at 9:31 AM
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TAPS
no idea! Maybe she is practicing Zen this morning, and putting her question to the Universe...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 9:19 AM
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Nautikos
First, I am curious as to TheDirector's question "Why?" Is she asking, "Why continue?" or is she referring to something special in the post itself?
posted by
TAPS.
on March 31, 2007 at 9:10 AM
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Why
not?
posted by
Nautikos
on March 31, 2007 at 9:05 AM
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Why?
posted by
Jenasis
on March 31, 2007 at 8:48 AM
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