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Naut: Part V
Yes, I understood the sword reference, my apologies for not being clear. Change fascinates me, would be an interesting topic to write about. --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 29, 2007 at 2:26 PM
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Foliage
The saying 'Live by the sword, die by the sword' is not a recommendation for, but a warning against violence!
And as to whether views can change, yes, they can. Sometimes they do change, and sometimes they don't, and then it is a question of trying to understand how and why they do or do not change...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 6:28 AM
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Naut
My apologies, I missed a chapter here....... In the Bible somewhere, the phrase (and I'm paraphrasing) it does say something about 'live by the sword; die by the sword' and I find the differing POV's here very strange. I have upmost respect for anyone practising their own religious beliefs....I do find it uncanny as regards my original comment the differing views within translations from old to new. Can we not change some? As society has changed, can these views not change? I'm puzzled. --Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 28, 2007 at 7:46 AM
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strat
thanks. Many people have looked, and couldn't find anything new. Now I have looked, and can't find anything either. I do find some things that disturb me, though...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 16, 2007 at 12:35 PM
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I don't know what Mohammed brought to the world that wasn't
already here. I know the Persians gave us Algebra, which is enough to incur my undying wrath...
As always, this is well-written, informative, thought provoking work. Thanks!
posted by
strat
on March 16, 2007 at 7:16 AM
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Corbin
Having read the Koran, I now
know that Manuel II Paleologos and the Pope were correct. And the Muslim reaction to their words
demonstrates that beautifully...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 16, 2007 at 6:56 AM
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OTA
unfortunately my knowledge of the Old Testament is extremely spotty, which is why my comparison probably ought not to be one between the Bible and the Koran, but the New Testament and the Koran. But then, this is all very sketchy anyway, almost embarrassingly so. Nonetheless, I have learned something in the process, and have possibly aroused some interest...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 16, 2007 at 6:51 AM
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Tanga
that was the idea...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 16, 2007 at 6:40 AM
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Whacky
thanks!
And a backrub for Bo...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 16, 2007 at 6:39 AM
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Naut.....
Remember the controversy created by recent remarks from the Pope...............
On September 12, 2006, Pope Benedict XIV gave a lecture at the University of Regensburg on “Faith, Reason, and the University.” His main point was that reason, ‘logos,’ was an integral part of the nature of God and central to Christian beliefs, whereas the God of Islam is not bound by rationality or even his own word. He went on to say that violence and threats are unreasonable, and they are not needed to convince a reasonable soul and lead one to faith.
The Pope told his audience that he was reminded of this distinction when he recently read an account of a dialogue that took place in Ankara in 1391 between the Byzantine emperor Manual II Paleologus and an educated Persian. At one point in the discussion, the emperor said, “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
I would love to hear from our Muslim friends....What did Mohammed bring to the world that was new?
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on March 16, 2007 at 4:36 AM
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Naut
Interesting.. you know there are some who read the old testament of the Bible and see a blood bath encouraged by God.. the stories of the Israelites taking over the promised land. Like many have said .. this is just wonderful reading. Thank you for continuing with this.
btw: I bought the book..America Alone
posted by
Blue_feathers
on March 16, 2007 at 4:04 AM
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Makes one think
posted by
Tanga
on March 15, 2007 at 11:48 PM
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A rose
from Bo =^..^= and one
from me!
posted by
Whacky
on March 15, 2007 at 8:16 PM
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Somehow I already knew that, Nautikos. LOL
posted by
TAPS.
on March 15, 2007 at 5:38 PM
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Xeno!
Haven't seen you around in a while! Thanks for dropping in! You're always so...so...
enlightening!
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 1:55 PM
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Ariala
thanks for the compliments! I try...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 1:53 PM
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Wiley,
thanks! And there's nothing wrong with the way you express yourself...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 1:46 PM
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TAPS
I am actually more concerned with the big surprises we're in for in
this life...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 1:41 PM
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enlightening? -- divisive is the proper term
Christians have not ceased to utilize certain means of conversion.
nidigenous Americans were forced to convert, as were the slaves-- these more recent events than you cite, and by Christians of the ancestry of many of us.
I have seen Christians lie in their attempts at conversion here in the U.S. -- and certain actions I have known of are basic violatons of the basic original message.
Mohammedanism yes was spread very much by conquest. yet if seems to have filled a vacuum. had there been something to the original religions, Mohammedanism, I would think, would not have taken hold like it did.
believers in that religion are just as aardent in their beliefs as are Christians. Why?
Why are bleivers on both sides so ardent? Why could not either convert to the other.
Some here in the U.S. have converted from Christianity to Mohammedanism without violence or coercion.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 15, 2007 at 1:38 PM
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Corbin,
see you later, alligator...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 1:38 PM
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Very well written and enlightening post...I agree with TAPS and Justi from
a religious point, and think you're doing a marvelous job with this from a cultural point of view. Jesus said he who lives by the sword will die by the sword. He also said that His Kingdom is not of this world...that's good enough for me. Keep up the good work!
posted by
Ariala
on March 15, 2007 at 10:16 AM
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Nautikos
Very true, Nautikos. That's why we (and a lot of other people) need the information in your Blog. I can't help but think that everyone, everywhere, is in for one kind of big surprise or another after the life is o'er.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 15, 2007 at 10:08 AM
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Nautikos
Love reading this from the historical perspectives you write about so well. As far as the religious side of things, I kind of like the way TAPS and JUSTI responded, and I couldn't improve on that in any way. I have the feelings as do they, I just can't express myself in exactly the same way.
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 15, 2007 at 8:36 AM
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Thanks, TAPS
It often takes the dispassionate eye of the 'independent' observer to analyze a problem adequately. Having said that, I am of course not entirely objective either, as I mentioned to Enigmatic, if for cultural reasons, rather than religious ones.
And of course, I understand your view of Mohammed. But unfortunately there are approximately 1.2 billion Muslims who view Jesus as 'dead' and Mohammed as the true 'prophet'...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 6:58 AM
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Naut......
I am going to read in detail tonight........
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on March 15, 2007 at 6:54 AM
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Enigmatic
If I end up on the side of angels I do not believe in, so be it. My basic concern here is defending a culture which is under a very serious threat. But my more
immediate concern is that very few people recognize that threat. And while I have no ready-made answers in my hip pocket on how to deal with the danger, I do believe that, as a first step, we have to
recognize it.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 6:45 AM
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Justi
You're absolutely correct - the Bible was available only in Greek and Latin. But then, during the Middle Ages and beyond, especially Latin was taken for granted as a necessary part of a good education.
As to your second point, my problem is that this translation uses the term 'God' rather than 'Allah'. And we must remember that Mohammed, right from the start, claimed that his messages were from the God of the Bible. And finally, Arab Christians (yes, there are such!) refer to God as Allah, since it's just the Arabic name for God...
What's a poor agnostic to do...?
posted by
Nautikos
on March 15, 2007 at 6:34 AM
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Naut
It's still too early for me to focus too much, but I promise, I will catch up with your writings soon!
posted by
bel_1965
on March 15, 2007 at 4:28 AM
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Nautikos
Your studies on this subject are so well expressed, especially for this milieu, and conducive to understanding the conflicts of our modern world. I could never so dispassionately compare Mohammed and Jesus, for to me the Prophet Mohammed was a man, dead now to everything but history, and Jesus is Immanuel, "God With Us", alive and with all power in heaven and in earth. The words of the Prophet Isaiah (52:7) set it forth in this way:
How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
posted by
TAPS.
on March 15, 2007 at 12:51 AM
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Nautikoster
I'm aprreciating your intellectual CRUSADE - and that says a lot for one of them thar subversive agnostics! Truthfully, I was a practicing Roman Catholic until age 19. - By the way, you are supposed to assume, in my affirm. action blog that both people had equally good grades and came from equally good high schools - ah the joy of being able to blog about a hypothetical world!
posted by
Enigmatic68
on March 14, 2007 at 8:33 PM
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Nautikos
An excellent post. In Christianity the people in general did not have the Bible until long after the Crusades. There was no Protestant movement and I don't believe the Knights knew what they were all about. They had not read the Bible, it was not allowed.
This is excellent. I do believe all terms of God in Islam should be referred to as Allah. It is blastphemy for me to read that as God. There is but one God He is both the God of the Jews and the Christians. He is not Allah.
posted by
Justi
on March 14, 2007 at 8:27 PM
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