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Whinge
sorry, I missed your comment until just now. I do understand what you are saying - there is something to be said for the 'school-of-hard-knocks' kind of education, and it does indeed sometimes produce good people and good politicians. But by no means always. And you would find them mostly at the municipal level. It's very rare to find politicians at the national level, let alone middle- and upper-level civil servants, who don't have at least some university education. In this country, many politicians are lawyers...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 27, 2007 at 5:00 AM
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Naut, I don't think education benefits politicians in the way that
adversity, lack of opportunity, and a plain old hard life does. Some of our best and most effective TD's (local governmental counsellors) here are just plain people who are life educated, and know how to fight. You can't teach that in a college.
The education of course is a huge asset, but very often, it's the only defining quality of current politics, somewhat seen as a highbrow prerequisite. Show me the heart of it is what I ask. Show me the politician who's put speed ramps in the neighbourhood where children have been knocked down because of speeding, show me the politician who's fighting for stricter requirements for driving license issuing in this country, and lastly, show me the politician who's still living in the same council estate they've refused to leave because of a bad reputation, and they've got my vote.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 26, 2007 at 4:55 AM
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Joe Love
I was and still am totally appalled by the non-action on the part of the universities! Among other things, these are the institutions where our nations' future politicians are being educated...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 26, 2007 at 4:11 AM
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Nautikos
Out of all the installments on this topic, this one was my favorite. It is deplorable that the colleges will keep their mouths shut when confronted with a story about their students cheating. I would expect for my college dean/president to come out appalled at such an accusation. Instead the only time they come out to defend themselves is when they are threatened being decreased a notch in a comparision of other colleges. (Oh brother!)
Very interesting post.
posted by
Joe_Love
on February 25, 2007 at 1:12 PM
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Whinge
thanks for that link - very interesting indeed! And it certainly gives rise to a host of questions...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 25, 2007 at 6:48 AM
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Naut, on another note, can you get access to any European newspapers over
there? In your nearest town/city am sure there's probably someone who sells 'The Sunday Times'.
Good article in one of the supplements by David James Smith. It's all about tons of Poles who can't find work in the U.K., sleeping on the streets, and ending up buying tickets home. I think somewhere down the line the same will happen here.
Nevermind actually, have it, In Search of a Ticket Home
Though I prefer reading the paper on paper, but I've 'The Sunday Times' to thank for some of my late unofficial education into world affairs (& you too).
Plus, the dresses in this weeks 'Style' supplement belong in my wardrobe.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 25, 2007 at 5:29 AM
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Oh Whinge, one more thing...
you can come and brag on my blog anytime...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 24, 2007 at 4:56 PM
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MandaLee
thanks! I thought it should be brought up, even though it's a very sad topic...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 24, 2007 at 4:54 PM
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Wiley,
you are absolutely right! You see, funding (actually, to them it's FUNDING), is based on body count - the more bodies, the more money...so figure it out: if, say 50% cheat, and get kicked out, they lose half their FUNDING...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 24, 2007 at 4:53 PM
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Whinge
ah yes, our Utopian longings...how could we live without them? Of course, scotch helps...wait a minute, I'll be right back...ah, that's better, 
!
And listen, you better keep an eye on that clever little pyromaniac of yours! Don't even leave two chunks of wood lying around, lest she start a fire by rubbing them together...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 24, 2007 at 4:49 PM
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I have a smart kid who will never cheat, she's too smart for that even!
Can you believe that my 17 month old daughter tried to light a fire today? I came from trying to organize washing in the kitchen to find her with the firelighter pack in hand. She'd cracked off a proper sized section and placed it in the grate. She then started to point at the lighter on the mantel. I was shocked, and amused at the same time, handed her the lighter, scared that she knew what it was for and even more scared at the prospect she'd know how to use it. She just looked at the top of it disappointed no flame had magically appeared. She then put it to the firelighter in the grate and waited as if it was going to spark up, no joy, so she took the firelighter out of the fire and tried to do holding both pieces.
I ended up lighting the fire just to keep her happy. She wanted to do the kindling, but we compromised on me putting it on the flame. Once the fire was lit, she didn't want anything more to do with it, even though she's obsessive about coming in to see it being done once she hears myself or Alex cleaning out the grate. She's practically up on top of you trying to watch the whole thing.
She then proceeded to put all the folded clothes back in the dryer while I was making her fire. Ok, now I'll go back to bragging on my own blog.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 24, 2007 at 3:54 PM
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Naut, ever more reason to be scared. Reckon we should all chip in &
run away to a nice desert island with helicopter and internet access, and try and protect our integrity as we know it.
We need a bunker full of coffee and scotch of course.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 24, 2007 at 2:55 PM
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excellent.
posted by
Amanda__
on February 24, 2007 at 2:31 PM
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Nautikos
They can't say anything in fear of losing funding I suppose. It's always about the money, rich and poor, as you mentioned in your comments to me of your last post. Things always catch up with cheaters though, one way or another and probably at the worst time of their lives, when they really didn't need to find out they shouldn't have done that.
posted by
WileyJohn
on February 23, 2007 at 8:56 PM
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TAPS,
sorry, I misunderstood, I should have known better than to think you wanted
me to ignore this...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 12:45 PM
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Whinge,
again, I agree with what you're saying in your remarks to Corbin! We're seeing a cultural shift here, and it's not one for the better...
And to introduce a geopolitical perspective, let me remind you of a disciplined, ever more confident China, and a faith-driven Islam...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 12:43 PM
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Corbin,
yes, we are slipping, badly. And we might even be able to analyze it, and understand it, but I don't see much hope for actually
doing something about it...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 12:37 PM
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Whinge,
you are absolutely correct: it begins in the family. But what you see out there now are the kids of Dr. Spock's children...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 8:36 AM
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Nautikos
I did not word my last comment here right. I did not mean for you to ignore the problem. What I was trying to say is that the educators are ignoring the problem because it is easier than trying to correct it.
posted by
TAPS.
on February 23, 2007 at 8:36 AM
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Muser,
it is very sad, and very scary...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 8:33 AM
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Tanga,
I have no doubt that, in the end, the honest students will do better. But I also know that, inevitably, we will have the cheaters out there...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 8:32 AM
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Justi
yes, there are some horribly bad ones, although there are many good ones out there as well. And many of those find themselves in a real bind...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 8:31 AM
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Maerchenzaehler
I think I have to agree, that considerations of intellectual integrity probably don't enterinto the picture at all any more at some levels. In part, what we are seeing here is a conflict between two principles: qualitative efficiency vs. quantitative efficiency, and the latter is winning. Partly, because the quantitative is much easier to handle (numbers rule), and the economics of it are thoroughly quantitative as well...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 8:28 AM
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Corbin, that in itself is scary, some children seem to have
huge egos, that combined with shady educational qualifications puts some scary people in power (not that there aren't already mind you!).
Look at the 'Nanny 911' epidemic of super indulged brats!
How is it, that decades ago, people were just as overworked (maybe not as overscheduled) but their offspring, for the most part had better morals, and given the chance of education, utilized it better and honestly.
Nowadays, we must have a time for everything, and the culture is if you don't have your 'me' time, 'family time', 'date night', 'girl's night', 'boy's night', 'couple's night', 'work night out', and so on, that you're just socially and generationally underachieving.
I think what people are achieving, is kids with no tangible imprint of their parents! Just a flood of daycare workers, teachers, professors, bosses, and no one who really invests real emotional involvement and time in their lives. So how can we expect them to have an idea, when they're not taught properly in the first place?
On the other side of it why not cheat, when you may have been cheated all along? Why not shortcut, when your life has been shrinkwrapped into time slots to accomodate all the adults races from 9-5 (or whatever), from nappies/diapers to college?
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 23, 2007 at 7:08 AM
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Naut....
On this whole topic.....
Isn't it an indication of where we (Canada & US) are slipping? We have abdicated our responsibilities as parents to TV, Computers, and Gameboys....."Outta sight, Outta mind"?
Parents expect our Primary and Secondary schools to do the parenting for us...which also means we have surrendered the responsibility to teach them "right or wrong", moral direction, and civil behavior.
If you think the honesty part is bad in the Universities......wait until this and following generations assume the mantle of responsibility for running everything....
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on February 23, 2007 at 6:38 AM
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TAPS
this to me is a very, very depressing situation. I wish I could ignore it, but I just can't, for all kinds of reasons...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 4:35 AM
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This is very disheartening....but it just proves that as time
goes on, we as parents, uncles, aunts, grandparents etc... have to take more responsibility in instilling the proper principles and work ethic in our children.
Yes, at some point, they may well be tempted anyway, it's somewhat of a rite of passage, but the good child will recognise it's wrong afterwards, feel guilty, and be less inclined to re-offend.
I'm not talking about making safe arses out of them so they'll never stray off the straight 'n' narrow, but just enough cop on/common sense to know that it's not the way to go no matter how easy it is.
We can blame outside influences and enablers as much as we like, it just means we've got to suck it up and tried harder closer to home. Don't leave it to the corrupt so-called 'responsibles' like the uni's, administrators, lecturers. A growing share of them will only worry if they're falling short on whatever the current educational guidelines/focus are, the current benchmarking, or other jargonated buzzwords that just describe whatever the flavour of the month/year/dept is.
What an exhausting job having a conscience is, it'd be great if Jiminy Cricket could take over for a while.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 23, 2007 at 3:16 AM
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Not only are these students going to be the next workforce, doctors,
and dentists among them, they will be the next generation of teachers and leaders...how sad and scarey is that?
posted by
muser
on February 23, 2007 at 12:36 AM
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Would hate to see this generation of students
in the work place. University teaches one to think for yourself. One cannot cheat in the work place and these students (and the professors allowing it) are doing themselves a disservice. The honest students are the ones that well excel in the real world
posted by
Tanga
on February 22, 2007 at 10:45 PM
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Nautikos
We have had such horrific behavior from our professors in the states. I don't know if they are an inch over the political crowd who will do anything for a vote. Our morals are out the roof.
posted by
Justi
on February 22, 2007 at 9:05 PM
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Naut
I hate to sound like a cynic, but I have to ask. Do college/uni deans and presidents have intellectual integrity? Hailing from Missouri makes this a particularly interesting subject for me. Recently (two years ago), the Uni built a new basketball/multipurpose arena. It was originally named "Paige Arena" for the daughter of the largest contributor. Last year, said damsel admitted in an interview with a highly regarded magazine, that she had cheated her way through college (UC-Berkley). The Uni at first decided not to rename the arena. Only after the city where it was located pressured the Uni chancellor did it become "Mizzou Arena". That single event speaks volumes to me enlight of this article. A university was willing to keep an arena named after an admitted plagarist and buyer of internet papers. While it happened at MU-Columbia, it could have happened at any university.
I share in your depression. I cheated once in College, well, almost cheated once in college and it wasn't even a big thing (is there such a thing?). But I would have felt like a fraud. However, the students see nothing wrong with it and often instructors that report "too many" kids, get censored. My advisor occasionally goes head to head with our current "Student Conduct Department" over the amount of reporting that she does. And she does a lot of it. At least one student a semester gets reported for cheating in her classes.
posted by
Maerchenzaehler
on February 22, 2007 at 7:16 PM
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Nautikos
Its the curse of the easy way out--just ignore what's going on and pretend like its not important.
posted by
TAPS.
on February 22, 2007 at 6:02 PM
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Maerchenzaehler
yes, 'saddened to the core'...that describes it well! As I mentioned to OTA, I have been really depressed about this all day...
I have even thought about writing to Naylor, but he doesn't know me from Adam, and I also wonder whether it makes sense to appeal to the intellectual integrity of someone who doesn't appear to have any...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 4:19 PM
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OTA
You know, when I read that editorial this morning I became really depressed, and I still am...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 4:09 PM
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Pat B
yes, peer pressure has always been important, especially for teenagers. When I was a teenager, there certainly was some cheating going on as well, but it certainly wasn't 'cool', and nobody was ever proud of it.
And at the university? I once cheated a bit in a mid-term test (I brought in a few statistics formulas for something I had failed to study), pleading 'special circumstances' to myself, although I was the author of these circumstances, so it was really a typical 'bad faith' kind of thing. And I really felt bad about having done it, although by today's standards it would probably not even cause a raised eyebrow. And I sort of 'made up' for it.
But the notion that it's possible, and what's more, that it's okay to cheat one's way through university, which seems to be widely held these days, simply didn't exist, and it ain't that long ago. What the hell has happened?
I have certain ideas, but they would fill a book...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 4:07 PM
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Naut -
I am saddened to the core that there wasn't an outcry from the Uni's. "Silence is Deafening" is one of my favorite phrases. I hear undergrads talk about teachers and classes. "As I said, I have overheard students tell other students not to take my advisor's undergrad classes because she reports all cheating. This is why a bachelor's degree means very little any more. Some day, probably soon, it will a Master's that means nothing.
posted by
Maerchenzaehler
on February 22, 2007 at 3:34 PM
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Naut
Ive been reading these posts and have to say this story is so disheartening. The absolute fiber of our future seems to be raveling in so many ways and this information tells me that possibly the next generation may have it no better.
posted by
Blue_feathers
on February 22, 2007 at 2:12 PM
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Among our peers, we behave in accepted ways.
We hesitate to separate from the herd and go it on our own. If all our friends cheat and take shortcuts, if they laugh at fools who work hard and stick to the legit - we don't want them thinking we're fools.
I can remember when kids didn't want to get in trouble at school because much more would be waiting at home. There were penalties for bad behavior. Cheats were ostracized and shunned. Teachers were respected.
But Administrators from K-12 through University turn their heads and avoid facing issues. They ignore complaints from students, teachers, staff. Hence the bullies keep on pushing other kids around, sexual harassment by profs against students is not dealt with, and the earth turns on its axis until something like the Columbine massacre or a massive lawsuit happens.
I hate to think I'd be at the mercy of a surgeon who got through med school by cheating.
posted by
Pat_B
on February 22, 2007 at 1:56 PM
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