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Nautikos
I, like you, believe that the loss of respect for honesty is not exclusive to college campases. However, I think that social issues as these need to be addresses (on the college and highschool level, for that matter), so that it can bleed into society.
posted by
Joe_Love
on February 25, 2007 at 12:19 PM
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Jomei
thanks for your comment, although I am not sure that I fully understand your distnction between the 'shell' and the 'esence' of the human being. In fact, I'm not sure that education can ever deal with 'essences'...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 2:02 PM
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Maerchenzaehler
what you say about German universities is pretty well what I would expect, and the same might hold true for Russian universities.
posted by
Nautikos
on February 23, 2007 at 1:59 PM
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Nautikos
Most education is goal-oriented and not process oriented. It deals amsot exclusively with the shell of a human being and not the exquisite essence inside. Like trying to make a ghost walk on a leash.
Universities engender a situation whereby a whole lot of people who have never been educated in spirit (and learn from people who haven't accumulated spirit) suddenly are given lots of power. Lots of power, without wisdom, is a dangerous thing. Like a kid driving an army tank. I am making a big generalisation here, but it is unfortuantely how it is mostly.
posted by
Jomei
on February 22, 2007 at 9:37 PM
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German Standards
In Germany, standards were a little higher in that it was dealt with faster and with a little more vehemence. However, it wasn't as wide spread while I was there. At no time can I remember hearing another student even talk about cheating. The expectations that students would cheat was much lower. I remember my handbook mentioning it, but not my teacher syllabi. It was more of the "it's just not done here" kind of thing.
posted by
Maerchenzaehler
on February 22, 2007 at 3:42 PM
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Naut, I look forward to it.
I have to admit (in the spirit of honesty) that there's a part of me that's jealous of their ability to just slide by.
On the other side of it, I've had my opportunities and wasted them due to lack of self-discipline and trying to be an arty farty hippy chick to meet art farty hippy wasters. If I had an opportunity to just learn, without all the outside stress factors, I don't think that I'd ever stop going to college. I'd be a 'professional student' for the rest of my life and not the cheating type either. Maybe I'd become a lecturer, I'm good with people (and I'm so humble too!).
Catch ya later, lunchtime's over here, back to work.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 22, 2007 at 6:00 AM
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Corbin
LOL. I saw a headline in the Red Star this morning that one of the High Priests, aka Al (I-want-an-Oscar-and-if-I-don't-get-it-I'll-hold-my-breath-til-I-die) Gore, was in T.O. yesterday, and may still be here today, for all I know, which I don't, since I don't usually look past the Red Star's headlines, unless they really, really, really interest me...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 6:00 AM
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Whinge
Boy, you really know how to open Pandora's box, don't you? The one about he poorly educated 'educated'? Which is, of course, the other side of the issue I have discussed here...I think what I'll do is send you a
sometime soon, though probably not today...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 5:49 AM
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Naut....
Have you noticed that our topic on the Religion of Environmentalism have been the topic of several news reports in the past few days???? I guess we are true trendsetters! LOL
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on February 22, 2007 at 5:49 AM
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Offy
You are absolutely correct, of course! If kids don't learn honesty in the home, they'll never learn it!
And thanks for my 'Good Morning kiss'! I love it! Here's one for you! 
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 5:16 AM
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Wiley,
thanks for your comment! Of course, the point I was trying to make was that it's not just the Ken Lays and Conrad Blacks of this world, or the politicians, or in the universities - the problem is everywhere! However, that it's everywhere does not make for good news - but Ken Lay and Conrad Black are highly visible and therefore do make for good news! And then people say 'Look, it's always the rich!' And I'm saying, no, it's not always the rich, nor is it only the rich! It's 'everyone', more or less!
And, hey, it's never too late for reading Plato! I'm sure you can find the Collected Dialogues at the library...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 22, 2007 at 5:09 AM
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I've seen people who've been college educated being unable to spell
or phrase a sentence, send badly constructed emails, and ask the likes of me for advice in some of the positions I've previously worked in as someone 'unskilled'. This would've been when I worked for a membership based business union/HR consultancy as a receptionist/secretary. It's beyond me that someone would fall back on a membership than use their brain.
This is not oneupmanship on my part, it's scary to think that someone's done a BA in Personnel Management/Human Resources who are not familiar with basic employment law. I understand it's easy to get confused when you're in that type of position in a company, but the rarely updated laws and ones in most common everyday use like Maternity Leave, Annual Leave, Parental Leave, Carer's Leave and Adoptive Leave, were the ones we'd get the most queries on from HR people who've been in these jobs for years. How did they get through college?
In Leone's primary school, some children have been reported for harrassment/verbal bullying over the maximum 3 times (this means that they should be expelled). I know this because, I was warned off applying for the school secretary's position as a 'concerned parent' advised me that some of the parents were worried about someone not from the community knowing everything about their children (nevermind that I'm only the next parish over!). At the time it didn't occur to me to get mad, I was too sleep deprived & dumbstruck, when it did catch up with me, I was in the supermarket, and started swearing in the refrigerated section. The concerned parent in question is head of the parent's association & her daughter has been reported several times, definitely more than three. So the rules are not just manipulated by the students, not when they're practically endorsed and given good examples to follow by parents and teachers alike. So they grow up with an expectation of certain behaviours being tolerated because of precedent and the 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' culture.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 22, 2007 at 5:02 AM
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Naut
I think you maybe talking about the reality of it all.Many learn to cheat very young by their parents (science projects come to mind) and when entered the educator marvels over the project and the child moves to the head of the class...Rewarding the student who then understands that cheating is okay...Why not it is santioned by educator and parents..
I suppose this behavior is carried on throughout college and who knows after that..
BTW...Good morning!
posted by
Offy
on February 22, 2007 at 2:47 AM
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Nautikos
I can't help wondering about the decline in moral values in society, as witnessed with Enron, bureaucrats,politician's,lawyers, Conrad Black et al, in the context of the declining belief in religion and faith.
Of course with all of that thinking, here I am reading your excellent post~as if you could write anything else~and I think we've rather thrown the baby of truth out with the bathwater of religion.
Oh how I wish I had attended university to try and learn how folks like Marcus Aurelius, or Plato and others, could have had such strong princilples, along with a philosophy about life, and things like honesty, even superior to Judaism or Christianity.
You do set an old man to thinkin' my friend and thank you for blogging.
posted by
WileyJohn
on February 21, 2007 at 7:04 PM
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Whinge
That's quite a drink you got yourself there! 
And thanks for the link. I took a look at it, and it's good to see that at least in that one school they have a smidgen of sense, and that at least one judge backed them up.
Partly, and increasingly so, this whole thing is a security issue. Do you know that one of the guys currently being charged with engaging in a little terrorist fun was trying to get away wearing the whole kit, veil and all?
posted by
Nautikos
on February 21, 2007 at 4:20 PM
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Maerchenzaehler
Thanks for your comment (I like long comments, lol!), especially when it's coming from someone at the 'frontline', as it were! What you describe is typical, of course, and it is this lax attitude that has contributed to the problem immensely! Incidentally, I would have thought standards would be a little higher in Germany, but apparently not.
posted by
Nautikos
on February 21, 2007 at 4:09 PM
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Whinge,
well, we're not just talking about a it of Irish blarney here...
And yes, I also agree with you about the various 'download rip-offs' that people engage in. As far as I am concerned, it's stealing, but few people seem to see it that way...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 21, 2007 at 4:02 PM
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Pat B
I find it appalling that our universities do not seem to be able to bring themselves deal with this problem. I wonder if it's partly a question of funding formulas - the more bodies, the more money. And if you acquire the reputation for being 'tough', people will gravitate to the 'easier' schools...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 21, 2007 at 3:57 PM
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Muser,
I agree, things don't look good! BTW, please say 'hello' to Max for me...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 21, 2007 at 3:49 PM
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I figured it out, all by myself! I was going to cheat and use instructions
but I figured out the fancy schmancy link thing. I'm gonna get me a drink!!!!
I'm sorry, but I love myself now.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 21, 2007 at 1:22 PM
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Sorry Naut, here's another link for you. Think Europe's not all embracing
regarding multiculturalism in certain circumstances. Click
here.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 21, 2007 at 1:20 PM
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Naut -
Cheating in University?! Impossible. Now that the BS is out of the way.
Undergrad penalties are light. If the teacher does take up the crusade to have something done, a first time offense is usually a mark in the file and a grade of zero. A second penalty includes a failing grade in that class. Only on the 3rd, yes I said 3rd, time you got caught, will a Uni begin discussing dismissal or at least at Un's I've attended (including the one in German). Then it's just discussion, nothing is set in stone until judgment comes down on the level of cheating, including evidence from the first 2 times. (They have levels of cheating?!?)
Expelling a student for cheating isn't good business sense and let's face it, Uni's are all about the money now days. I know the University of Missouri (where I'm from), cannot charge tuition to state citizens. They get around this by charging "Educational Fees". Oddly, out of staters pay only a touch more than people from the state.
I know the undergrads think my advisor is a real hard-ass because she always reports cheating to the admin. People have actually dropped her class because of it. Now what does that say about our University Education? Sorry so long, had to toss in my two cents as a grad student.
posted by
Maerchenzaehler
on February 20, 2007 at 8:26 PM
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How's about a little embellishment, soft padding (of which I have loads'n'
loads), let's just say it's a genetic predisposition (Irish) similar to us having large heads on pints, it's just not quite as satisfying otherwise like!
I've never cheated on an exam, I don't believe in it, I like to fail honestly. Also, I have this thing about pirated DVD's and ripping software on computers. I don't believe in it. Buy the goddamned CD & DVD.
posted by
CringeintheUSA
on February 20, 2007 at 2:17 PM
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As for honesty and cheating in academia...
If we're talking about students / assignments / cheating, etc., if you cheat, it's not the teacher who loses, it's you, because eventually in the so-called real world, failure to truly learn the subject matter will show up when it can hurt the most. Folks who really know their stuff can see right through the empty, unlearned but credentialled loser.
If we're talking about professors and administrators, that's a whole 'nother arena, with much deadlier weapons, more subtle attacks, and sometimes extreme fallout. Again, the posers and liars pay the price, and sometimes others also get stung.
posted by
Pat_B
on February 20, 2007 at 2:11 PM
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And, BTW...Max and I throughly enjoyed the "series" and hope for more!
posted by
muser
on February 20, 2007 at 2:02 PM
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Sadly, Nautikos, I think you are not pessimistic, but realistic. As long as
the words guilt, and shame are being drummed out of our national vocabularies because they have been deemed "psychologically damaging" to our children by liberal interpretation, I'm afraid it won't be too much longer before our countries will be morally bankrupt.
posted by
muser
on February 20, 2007 at 1:33 PM
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strat,
thanks! Your grandfather was clearly 'inner-directed'...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:43 AM
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Corbin
peaceful? Around here? Have you had too many martinis for lunch?
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:41 AM
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Dylan,
if you see this as an 'attack on universities', you got it wrong. In fact, anyone who's paid attention to my posts would probably agree that attacking univerities is the last thing I would do! They are among the institutions I hold in the highest esteem, and it is for
that reason I deplore the decline in intellectual honesty...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:34 AM
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My grandfather was a man of many aphorisms,
but an unimpeachable integrity. One of his maxims was "Right is right if no one is doing it and wrong is wrong if everyone is doing it."
I suppose the obvious problem, then, comes in defining right and wrong. In my mind, right and wrong is directly defined by man's ultimate realization that he needs to establish frameworks and ground rules by which he can survive and prosper beyond just the immediate family/clan/tribal level.
I'm sure that's not original doggerel on my part, but it's what comes to mind. As always, I enjoy reading you!
posted by
strat
on February 20, 2007 at 11:27 AM
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TAPS
like you, I don't see much hope for improvement...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:24 AM
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Tanga
I agree. Unfortunately, for many people it doesn't seem to be a big deal anymore...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:23 AM
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Justi,
yep, it's everywhere...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:06 AM
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Solo,
makes sense to me...
posted by
Nautikos
on February 20, 2007 at 11:03 AM
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Honesty is some needed around here.........
If everyone were honest with themselves....things might be a lot more peaceful......
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on February 20, 2007 at 6:27 AM
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In reply to your ? in the previous comment page
Defensive because I anticipated an attack on the left, which usually comes in an attack on universities. And that is what we got in this post, a reference to the "fuzzy liberalism".
I actually think that the follow-the-crowd other-directed disposition is easily locateable on the right, where there is an expectation that citizens should follow the president and other national leaders (though only those who agree with the president) on foreign policy matters just because he is the president. To stand apart from the president and question U.S. foreign policy for its imperialistic aspects is to assure that many on the right will call you an unpatriotic America-basher.
Then again, one could probably find evidence of crowd-following on both left and right.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on February 20, 2007 at 3:23 AM
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Nautikos
I have trouble seeing enough educators taking the time and trouble to seriously address the cheating scandal to make a difference. But, I would be very happy if I were proven wrong.
posted by
TAPS.
on February 19, 2007 at 11:20 PM
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One has to draw the line at some stage
I white lie sparing feelings I think is sometimes good, but blatant lies for selfish benefit are bad. It is the inner person that decides which path of deceipt they are willing to follow.
posted by
Tanga
on February 19, 2007 at 10:54 PM
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Nautikos
I believe you are right on here. I don't think any class of people is better or worse about lying, cheating or stealing. I believe one need some motive greater than himself to prevent either of those. There needs to be stricter rules in schools from elementary through graduate school, particularly post graduate. Did it begin first in the work place? Did they make demands on certain levels by document or reality? Who knows? When you come to a point you catch yourself then you will no longer sucumb to the habit. Your personal value of yourself will curtail the easy nab.
posted by
Justi
on February 19, 2007 at 7:54 PM
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I try not to do what everybody is doing when they look stupid.
posted by
Jenasis
on February 19, 2007 at 7:37 PM
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