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OFFBEATS,

thanks, and good evening! I have, in the other blog...

posted by Nautikos on November 16, 2006 at 6:08 PM | link to this | reply

Naut

Good morning! Just checking to see if you had written a new post...

posted by Offy on November 16, 2006 at 5:18 AM | link to this | reply

Justi,

but I just posted a piece today!

posted by Nautikos on November 13, 2006 at 4:07 PM | link to this | reply

Natuikos

I am missing your writing.

posted by Justi on November 13, 2006 at 2:50 PM | link to this | reply

Wiley,

okay, okay, I get the point...

posted by Nautikos on November 13, 2006 at 6:59 AM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

 

Wiley was here!

 

posted by WileyJohn on November 12, 2006 at 1:21 PM | link to this | reply

As far as pillow talk, Naut, well, that's between the Prof and I, but I can

pretty well assure you, that we won't be talking about WriterofLight, to the extent that we'll be talking at all.  (I'm sorry, I could agree with you, but Writer has been rather rude and dismissive about Professor Peabody's military service, and pontificating as though he were an expert on the military himself).

I'm more inclined to egg the prof on, in fact Im afraid I do.  I think Writer's got it coming.

posted by Blanche. on November 11, 2006 at 7:07 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche.

I understand that you can't control Prof P's demeanor. I had actually thought more in terms of employing a bit of pillow-talk type female persuasion... However, even that may not be possible.

With respect to name-calling, I suggest there is a world of difference between calling a public figure 'Bubba', 'Splash' or, in Bush's case 'Nazi', and calling your interlocutor of the moment an 'asshole'. And as to who started it, well, this rightie, who isn't given to name-calling in the first place, as you may have noticed, would not venture to embark on an investigation of who actually did start it. But if I were asked to guess, I would say the 'lefties' did, for reasons that might almost deserve a separate post...

posted by Nautikos on November 11, 2006 at 6:58 PM | link to this | reply

TAPS

thanks! Yes, it is interesting, and also something that will affect us all in ways few of us would expect...

posted by Nautikos on November 11, 2006 at 11:54 AM | link to this | reply

Corbin,

why would I mind a bit of free advertising?

posted by Nautikos on November 11, 2006 at 11:51 AM | link to this | reply

Nautikos, I'm afraid I have very little control over the Professor, he's

his own person.  And, sadly, when WriterofLight starts in with "Splash" Kennedy, "Bubba" Clinton, etc.  I'm afraid he starts the ball rolling.  It's a dirty game, politics, and the righties started the name-calling. We're not in a conciliatory mood.

posted by Blanche. on November 11, 2006 at 10:12 AM | link to this | reply

Nautikos, What an interesting post and discussion here on your comments page.

posted by TAPS. on November 11, 2006 at 10:07 AM | link to this | reply

Naut.....

I hope you don't mind but I linked to your post in my blog......

posted by Corbin_Dallas on November 11, 2006 at 6:07 AM | link to this | reply

Corbin,

thanks! I have been looking at a lot of related material over the last year or so, although I haven't read Steyn's book yet (it's on my list, though), and the whole thing is scary in the extreme! As you may recall, I have posted on this issue before, but it doesn't seem to register with our people, be they Americans or Canadians. We are strangely insular here! I wonder what it will take for people to wake up?

posted by Nautikos on November 10, 2006 at 4:33 PM | link to this | reply

Naut.....

I loved your post....I recently finished Mark Steyn's superb book, America Alone which is about disturbing European demographic trends and the danger of radical Islam.  The coming of Eurabia.....

I am going to post on it tonight.....these kinds of messages are very important to inform our peoples about the things that are going on without their knowledge.....

posted by Corbin_Dallas on November 10, 2006 at 5:48 AM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

posted by WileyJohn on November 9, 2006 at 9:03 PM | link to this | reply

OFFBEATS,

thanks for your comment! Well, since you ask, and without going into a big song and dance, let me tell you that I think things will get a lot worse before they get better...

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 8:35 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche.

great! BTW, could you do me a favor? You might prevail upon Prof P. to tone down things a bit. I noticed that he called WofL a 'sanctimonious asshole' in one of his comments.  Now, glad as I was to see the Prof back, I have no intention of debating anything with someone who resorts to name-calling...

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 8:31 PM | link to this | reply

Justi,

you may be right. My problem is that I really don't know anything about Satan's point of view...

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 8:20 PM | link to this | reply

LeRoy

thanks for dropping in. I think Arab thinkers did, in fact, contribute more than is generally understood. But the critical point is that they're certainly not doing so today!

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 8:17 PM | link to this | reply

kooka,

I am really not sure how you can arrive at your conclusions! To begin with, the religiously and, increasingly, culturally diverse mosaic that make up the United States is fundamentally different from the religiously highly homogeneous Muslim societies, especially those, as in Iran, where the mullahs themselves form the government. 

On the other hand, in the US the separation between church and state is a fact, as it is in virtually all Western countries to varying degrees! So much so, indeed, that it sometimes takes on completey ludicrous forms.

There is no other country in the world, kooka, where so many divergent and sometimes idiotic opinins can be expressed freely. There is no country in the world where so many groups are permitted to contend for attention and influence. That includes religious groups, who have the same rights as everyone else. And if people vote for them, well, then the people have spoken. That's part of the normal dynamics in a society that is in constant flux.

Those who don't like that should offer alternatives, rather than merely complain that the religious groups become too strong and demand they be silenced! 

The separation of church and state is a fact, a fact as perfectly or imperfectly established as is possible with these kinds of arrangements in law.

And to seriously believe that America is in danger of turning into a theocracy is, well, sorry kooka, just kooky...

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 8:14 PM | link to this | reply

Naut

I never really thought about it until I read this post! It's very interesting when you think of it this way and your absolutely correct about it. This is really a shame because of the tremendous population of Muslims. I wonder how long it will be before they start producing Noble prize winners and great authors? Very interesting thoughts...you taught me something again~

posted by Offy on November 9, 2006 at 7:19 PM | link to this | reply

Corbin,

you're right, and your reference to the persistence of Medieval practices in Islam is not just a figure of speech. I am reminded of the recent case of a Pakistani Muslim, who barely escaped with his life because he had converted to Christianity, and then only because of foreign intervention. How many of those case do we never hear of?

Christian apostates and heretics were put to death in the Middle Ages, Muslim apostates suffer that fate to this day!  

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 7:19 PM | link to this | reply

Indeed, Nautikos, I agree.

posted by Blanche. on November 9, 2006 at 5:24 PM | link to this | reply

nautikos

Islam is the greatest plagiarism ever pulled off in the history of man. If you really understand the Bible one knows that Islam is a mock up of it from Satan's point of view. He is a copy cat. He is a liar and the father of lies. I may be thrown off Blogit for this post because I have been turned before but this is the truth. 4,000 years after the writing of the Bible it was copied and skewed to make it malefic; it even uses some of the same characters. It is incredible. If I am let go so be it.

posted by Justi on November 9, 2006 at 5:05 PM | link to this | reply

Naut, excellent, again

It was true that Muslims gave us a few advancements in mathematics, but these were because of pet mathematicians kept at the houses of the rich, who desired to keep their privileges and thus did not want much, if any, change.  The West through all its faults, kept advancing because of it's Judeo-Christian emphasis on bettering conditions across the board.

posted by LeRoyCoyote on November 9, 2006 at 2:38 PM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

posted by kooka_lives on November 9, 2006 at 6:12 AM | link to this | reply

Excellent Post!

I equate Islam today to Christianity in the Dark Ages......the leadership of the church chose to suppress learning.....they wanted the masses to remain ignorant and poor.   Any new thought was suppressed.....scholars were branded as heretics and imprisoned or executed........

That puts them on an average about 4-5 centuries behind the Western world when it comes to the status of being civilized.  And it brings up the point of how does the "civilized" world deal with this particular "uncivilized" world.....especially one ingrained with such a desire to brutally force their brand of religion on non-believers?

posted by Corbin_Dallas on November 9, 2006 at 5:36 AM | link to this | reply

Tanga,

If this had not come from Al-Jazeera, I would have dismissed it as possibly an incidence of the kind of 'defamation' Muslim leaders accuse the West of...

posted by Nautikos on November 9, 2006 at 5:19 AM | link to this | reply

Very informative

The figures stated are simply baffling! Thanks for sharing this info. I found it most interesting.

posted by Tanga on November 9, 2006 at 2:00 AM | link to this | reply

Wiley,

thanks for your thoughtful comment. Even though I am an agnostic, I can live with Khalil Gibran's views! It's been a long, long time since I last read him. Maybe I should take another look...

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 8:34 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche.

I am not suggesting that the role of women has no effect. In reality there is indeed a reflexive relationship between an even far greater number of variables, as is usually the case.

But when it comes to identifying one of these variables as the most important one, and even allowing for the fact that it is far less monolithic than it sometimes appears to be, Islam is it. Remove Islam from the equation, and the role of women will change rapidly and dramatically. But since that is of course not happening, women's position in the Muslim world will change very slowly.

And to people in the West, who believe that the vast majority of Muslim women is chafing under the yoke of an intolerable opression I can only say there ain't a lot of chafin' goin' on. That's seeing things through Western eyes, using fine, liberal Western standards. Muslim women see things differently, and use different standards. And how different they are you see when they come to the West and could easily divest themsleves of all these strange views, let alone of their burkas! If it only were that easy...

 

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 8:22 PM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

My take on all of this well written and interesting blog, is that man is angry at the religions he has followed, but he refuses to examine his scary beliefs.

It,s hard to believe I'm a recovering Catholic, but I have been on that frightening journey of belonging wholheartedly to a religion, then years of an examination for myself, and come out with my own belief.

My faith turned out to be in a man, Jesus, who is man one minute, woman the next, black one minute, white another, and Kahlil Gibran summed it up for me beautifully and I don't even argue about any of it anymore.

" I love you my brother, whoever you are, whether you worship in your church, kneel in your temple, or pray in your mosque. You and I are all children of one faith, for the divers paths of religion are fingers of the loving hand of one Supreme Being, a Hand, extended to all, offering completeness of spirit to all, eager to receive all."

Now most folks in religions, can't keep control of people with thoughts like that in their heads, so fear by misusing the Bible or Koran has to be utilized, and the Taliban have simply made that an art form. They probably took notes during the inquisition. Sad isn't it.

 

 

posted by WileyJohn on November 8, 2006 at 8:17 PM | link to this | reply

Jane,

thanks! I try to do the best I can...

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 7:55 PM | link to this | reply

I disagree, most respectfully, Nautikos, I think that the position of women

in Muslim cultures is not only a symptom but a cause, as well. It's a cycle, or a circle, if you will.

posted by Blanche. on November 8, 2006 at 6:56 PM | link to this | reply

Naut, great post, and also an excellent response to Kooka.

I wondered, as I was scrolling backwards through the comments (from bottom to top), how you would respond to his rather off the wall and slightly irrational comment.  As usual, I was not disappointed.  Well said!

posted by JanesOpinion on November 8, 2006 at 6:40 PM | link to this | reply

ariel,

thanks! Your're absolutely right. You and I are singing from the same hymn book, if that's an appropriate metaphor for a couple of heathen...

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 4:44 PM | link to this | reply

kooka,

thanks for dropping in. I take it you're not entirely serious when you suggest "there really does seem to be an active movement right now from the Conservative Fundamentalists to turn this country into what we claim to be fighting against over in the Middle East."

Also, the notion that all religion is necessarily detrimental to 'growth' is simply wrong. What is critical is the kind of religion we're dealing with. You might want to read, for example, Max Weber, The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, to get an understanding of the complexities involved.

And just so that you don't think I have a particular religious axe to grind, I am an agnostic.

I would also be interested in your definition of 'true freedom'...

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 4:39 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche.

Of course one should be open-minded about all cultures! But open-mindedness ought to operate both ways! Which means that those who come to live in our culture should not be permitted to impose their ways and values on ours. The problem is that there are those among us who encourage them to do so!  

And, from our perspective, the treatment of women in the Arab world is indeed appalling, although their backwardness is not  caused by it. In other words, the position of women in the Arab world is a symptom, rather than a cause.

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 4:18 PM | link to this | reply

Justi,

thanks for dropping in! I'm not entirely certain who it is you are referring to...

posted by Nautikos on November 8, 2006 at 4:03 PM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

 

A very good post, and just about encapsulates my views on the subject.

Not one of the 48 Muslim countries is in any meaningful sense of the word, a democracy. Not only are almost all Muslim countries econmoically backward in comparison with western democracies, but they depend upon western expertise and dynamism for their very economic existence.

It is western companies, using western, not Muslim, technology that build and maintain their infrastructure and their oilfields etc.

Islam keeps its adherents firmly in the eleventh century bot economically and socially. 

posted by ariel70 on November 8, 2006 at 3:06 PM | link to this | reply

The Answer to this is obvious

posted by kooka_lives on November 8, 2006 at 2:35 PM | link to this | reply

That's a very interesting fact, that Greece, as small as it is, has

published 10 times as many books as the entire Arab world combined.  It does speak volumes about the impact of suppression and repression on artistic and creative output.  Creativity cannot be controlled or leashed, it needs expression, and when half the population is so ruthlessly suppressed, as women are, it impacts the entire culture negatively, imho.

 I try to be open-minded about all cultures, but it does irk me to see women in our country wearing their traditional 13th Century burkas and enjoying rights and privileges that are denied to them in Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Iran and other countries and yet refusing, for example, as in Florida, to take off their headgear to get A DRIVER'S LICENSE photo, because it violates her cultural upbringing. Hello! Lady, in your culture, you can't DRIVE, let alone get a driver's license. Get off the cellphone, and get out of the burka. 

posted by Blanche. on November 8, 2006 at 2:20 PM | link to this | reply

Nautikos

You have hit the nail on the head but it is the father of Islam who is changing theirs and all the world as much as he can.

posted by Justi on November 8, 2006 at 1:57 PM | link to this | reply