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Thanks for that post.
posted by
word.smith
on July 17, 2005 at 1:36 PM
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Terpgirl,
"The old rule, and it's one of the best I've ever learned is, if you know the rules, THEN you can break them." This is "very, very" true.
posted by
Azur
on July 15, 2005 at 1:19 PM
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Terpgirl
This is very imformative.......thank you for sharing! I have not read you before, but I will definately read you from now on!
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on July 15, 2005 at 12:57 PM
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Maj
I think I missing part of what you're trying to say here. Since this is about improving and learning, I'm thinking long term stuff. I think a Tina Turner, Ike-marrying person will draw a crowd that first time, I'd have to agree. But you only fool the public a few times on that kind of thing. When Chuck Norris became famous, I was dragged to a reprise of one of his first films at a theatre in a horrible section of town. I watched an hour, thinking I was missing something or there sure were a lot of previews. No, it was a movie by a Bruce Lee wannabe named Bruce Li and Chuck had a tiny role as a Kung Fu accountant (his voice dubbed, no less). I fell seriously cheated, and you can bet I really watched what I fell for that way again.
I sell antiques on the side. Anytime I hear the words "looks like" Lalique, Home Laughlin, etc., I immediately translate that to mean knock off. It's said specifically because there are those who will bite that first time.
The old rule, and it's one of the best I've ever learned is, if you know the rules, THEN you can break them. I don't have a problem with it. I love one-word sentences, for example. Newbies get published all the time. We were all newbies at one point. Most pay dues in rigorous settings or they are students of literature for years prior so they get what something should sound like. They do it naturally. Others like the *idea* of being a writer and dabbled as children, so they think that will translate. Your relatives and friends generally won't be honest, let alone brutally honest, with you. This is a loner sport, so I'd learn all the rules I can...then pick and choose which ones I want to adhere to. The key is that I know why I choose not to adhere to the rule---is it because I don't know that that's the standard or because I'm using it as a literary device of my own, to set my work apart.
And this stuff evolves. It was unheard of to use first person for so long. It's one of the reasons I never tried a mystery. My tone lends itself to first-person storytelling. I could have been that breakout writer (Grafton and Evanovich) in that field, as you are saying in not adhering to the rules...but I wasn't personally at that place yet. So, I'm glad someone did it and made it easier on me.
What sort of stuff do you write?
posted by
terpgirl30
on July 15, 2005 at 12:22 PM
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gee and I thought I was the hottest thing since eecumings
ORKENKESEY!OHMIGOD!OHMIGOD!OHMIGOD!
I think we dilletantes miss the point because we are told you can't write like Tom Clancy or whomever because we haven't published. It's more like that you can dress like Tina Turner, act like Tina Turner, get nplastic surgery and look like Tina Turner, you can date Ike, but if you can't sing like her, then it doesn't work.
Someone would still buy tickets, though. There are people published who ARE "wannabes", the publisher puts them out there...and sometimes they click, because they had what it toook anyway.
EG: Dale Brown (Tom Clancy clone originally); Robin Cook (Michael Crichton clone, originally).
But I've never been published for money or fvor more than 10,000 readers, mso
posted by
majroj
on July 15, 2005 at 10:24 AM
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Terpgirl--
"There are" *many* good points here.
posted by
Julia.
on July 15, 2005 at 8:19 AM
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Maj
You can't know the history on this, but when my son was little, I would shout the "Oh My God!! about something. (I'm from Baltimore, so that's not a natural phrase....more like Ehhh my Gawd, hon!!!") About that time, the song Baby Got Back hit the scene, so when I would say it, to annoy me, the kids would start gyrating and singing:
OH My God, Sheila, Have you seen her butt?
I like big butts and I'm here to say....
It got to the point that we'd forget where we were, and that would pop out. I still do it.
It's funny, but when I wrote that, I looked at it and thought how I never say that. I wanted to change it to I agree totally. I'm trying so hard not to be stilted here that I really resist editing things. In my other column, I've gotten a few cracks from people for that but I really am trying to keep my little fingers off of the delete key. Otherwise, it becomes work, if that makes sense.
As for the exception to the rule thing...again....I TOTALLY agree, hon. The problem is, everyone things they are the exception to the rule. I've had to read through one seriously agonizing thing after another with people who think they are the exceptions. I always get the "Well, Stephen King does it." I literally hear that once a week from a writer. It's always from people who haven't submitted, let alone sold, a thing.
The other rule I get nailed on all the time has to do with characters. I prefer character-driven stories. The plot is sometimes the backdrop for me. It has to be there, but I have to really get to know (love or hate) these people I'm reading about. I've had people say things about my fiction in that regard. Everyone is wanting me to shoot a second or third person in scenes. I can predict when they are going to say it since I've heard it so much. But I also know the fact that they are expecting it is a good reason not to do it. It heightens what will come even more. You have to know when to stand still and not change what you are doing. You, the writer, certainly know what you want to accomplish. Catcher in the Rye? Not much of a plot there, but you really get to know Henry...everything about Henry. And there are people who loved it and people who hated it. I don't like Clancy's stuff. Just a personal preference.
Still, I hate for people to ignore the passive rule, in particular, when they are just starting out. Very few people know how to do it.
Another example is switching points of view throughout. Some famous writers do it well, some are toying with it. Invariably, I'll get manuscripts and show the person how the point of view doesn't make sense and they'll point to the famous people who do it. Well, the problem is, I guarantee you this particular writer didn't have a clue she was jumping back and forth in point of view, let alone using it as a literary device.
My brother and father refuse to be around if I use a hand power saw. My brother gave one away although I really needed one. They're say I'll cut my hand off. So, sure, the tools are out there and work well in the hands of people who know how to use them. But for those of us who are more apt to cut off a hand, it's better to stick with the standard tools until we know what we're doing.
posted by
terpgirl30
on July 15, 2005 at 6:13 AM
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And it's awesome that you TOTALLY, like, agree?
(OH.....MY........
GOD!!)
posted by
majroj
on July 14, 2005 at 7:52 PM
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Like, fer shure!
I just focus on the exceptions that make the rule, so to speak, if you will.
posted by
majroj
on July 14, 2005 at 7:51 PM
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Maj
I totally agree about cliches with characters. I have stuff going and every so often I have people point out cliche stuff, but it's a small town neighborhood, and that's how the people speak. It's like using passive voice. Most will tell you never to use it, but as with using the bridge in music, it's a device that moves the thing along IF you know what you are doing.
Bottom line, you know when someone is being lazy and someone is using it as a technique. Usually when the person is lazy, the rest of the work is pretty bad, too, right?
posted by
terpgirl30
on July 14, 2005 at 12:38 PM
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Ah! Strunk's "Little Book"!
Cliches and "mealymouths" can be useful:
1. Cliches in dialogue can tell us about the character. Little else conveys a character's IQ, social station, placement in time, (and/or the author's and the readers's prejudices and sterotyping) quite so quickly.
2. "Mealymouths" can be used to keep the focus off the "many" this or that and onto the target...a semantic trick, and maybe more suited to polemic than real authorship.Or, as you said, to imply a trusth that you really don't know (or can't prove?) exists.
Oh, and/or by the way, have a very, very, very nice day. Er, quite!
posted by
majroj
on July 14, 2005 at 12:07 PM
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what a great post-
thanks for the advice! i bitterly scorned my one college professor (history, ugh!) for giving me the worst grade ever on a term paper. She slammed me with a 71!!!! for those things you mention... passive voice, there is, there are, etc. I fumed with anger, but I'll tell ya what, I always try to avoid those things since then!
posted by
DancesWithWords
on July 14, 2005 at 9:42 AM
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Great advice. Thanks!
posted by
UsualSuspect
on July 14, 2005 at 7:31 AM
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hello terpgirl30,
Excellent. I try to bury the very! Ha-Ha But, I love cliches in verbal interactions. For example, sick behind the pickle barrel or that's all she wrote. Young people sometimes just haven't heard them and sometimes want an explanation. It's fun.
posted by
jacentaOld
on July 14, 2005 at 5:53 AM
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great tips....
most of these (aside from the cliche` point) i hadn't really thought of, but reading through it i realized how true it is...... thanks!
posted by
mmm-w
on July 14, 2005 at 5:17 AM
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There are some very, very, very good points there!
There truly are. Hit me like a ton of bricks. Very, very good stuff!
posted by
Mademoiselle
on July 14, 2005 at 5:15 AM
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