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One of my favorite stories about Koko was when she had been trying
to get someone to give her a drink, and when no one responded, she put a hose (I think it was a hose) in a bucket, and signed, "Koko sad elephant."
posted by
Ciel
on April 16, 2005 at 7:58 PM
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I did some reading on Koko not long ago and I was fascinated by her
so I bought a documentary that detailed her years thus far, she is in fact very capable of feeling loss. She loves kittens, and her first one was eventually killed by a car I believe and she was so distraught over her loss that I too was upset. She also has the ability to form her own words through signing, not only the ones she was taught. She has actually taught her keepers words she wanted to express. How cool is that!!
posted by
doigotta
on April 16, 2005 at 7:14 PM
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Can I just point something out?
Most human beings are nice. When we talk about humanity with such contempt, who are we thinking of? The last person who you walked by on the way to work, was he going to stab you in the back and take all your money?
Okay, we have shit. But mostly, people care. The system screws things up, and people are weak when greed or fear needs them to turn a blind eye... but few are evil.
Humanity has become a bogeyman. We're the only creature to distinguish right and wrong aren't we? Mm, well I can't say we have no more to work on, but I just get irritated when people think romantically of animals and beat themselves up. In that movie Brother Bear some kid gets turned into a bear and learns how humans are destroying everything blah blah poor animals... animals never hurt each other... but funnily enough, the fish that the bears eat aren't given personalities. *rolls eyes* Then your kid goes and sees Finding Nemo.
posted by
Gubby
on April 16, 2005 at 6:57 PM
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Emptyhandedpainter, the NatGeo special about the killer chimps was on
last night. Very very disturbing. A few years ago I had the privilege to interact for a time, with the signing chimps in Ellensburg, WA-- Washoe and her family-- and so this has more impact on me than it might otherwise. Jane Goodall said, when she first spoke to the world about the violence of chimps: "We thought they were nicer than us. They aren't." There is great sadness in that and disappointment. If things go on pretty much unchanged on this planet for a few million more years, they will be us.
And in seeing them, we see our own beginnings, and perceive how deep those roots are, of our urges to violence. But there is hope, too, because we can see and compare, and make other choices, as we mature as a species.
posted by
Ciel
on April 16, 2005 at 2:09 PM
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Ciel...
YES! Hobbits...fascinating! I am also familiar with Gigantopithicus. Having been reared in the PNW, I have never doubted the existance of Big Foot, There are far too many people that I knowm trust, and respect that have seen, heard, or smelled them or evidence of them. I must get my hands on that national geographic!!
posted by
A_Norseman
on April 14, 2005 at 5:11 PM
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re the hobbits -- i have that particular Geographic.
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 14, 2005 at 3:02 PM
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Emptyhandedpainter, thanks for that reference.
It kind of reverses the whole bush-meat business. I wonder what they will catch from us? It is now known that HIV came to us through the eating of certain monkeys. Also interesting that chimps can get HIV, but never get AIDS
posted by
Ciel
on April 14, 2005 at 3:00 PM
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Sannhet, I have long considered it a criteria of cultural sophistication,
the size of the circle around who we include as 'people.' Which puts some primitive hunter/gatherer societies in advance of modern Western culture.
posted by
Ciel
on April 14, 2005 at 2:57 PM
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Alf, I don't know anything about that particular yeti story, but there are
fossil remains of a hominid called Gigantopithecus. If you measure the distance between the point of your chin and the angle of your jawbone below the ear, as a human you get around 5-6 inches, give or take a bit. Gigantopithecus jaw bones measure more like 2 to 2.5 times that length. And that's just the bone.
So there is a precursor for the Bigfoot in the fossil record. If they have survived to present time, that would make them the only other hominid species in the world that is still making twigs on the family tree.
Interesting also is that the 'hobbit' remains found recently on an island the name of which I forget, but near Sumatra, I think, also managed to live up to relatively recent times, I think around 15,000 years ago, at least, and long enough to feature in local folk memory. Last month's National Geographic has an article, I believe.
posted by
Ciel
on April 14, 2005 at 2:54 PM
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RE: killing and eating humans
this was the subject of a national geographic or history channel or something like that program within the past 2 months.
what it was -- human encroachment was limiting the forests, thus the monkeys that the chimps ordinarily hunted for food were scarce, so one or two of the boldest began taking human infants.
the villagers had to hunt down and kill these chimps
posted by
Xeno-x
on April 14, 2005 at 2:21 PM
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Ciel -
Personally, I think it is incredibly arrogant to think that we are the only altruistic, loving, thinking animals in the world. And incredibly sad.
posted by
sannhet
on April 14, 2005 at 1:23 PM
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Ciel...
Good links. I stand corrected in my statement that Orangutans are our closest kin...hmmmm, wonder why I thought that? I hate being wrong, Oh well. I was wrong once back in 1981 also, lol. Facsinating stuff though.
Here is a curious thought; what about the big foot / sasquatch / yeti? There are stories from remote south America about a village that had captured a young Yeti female and tamed it. It splept in an unlocked cage in the village and was frequently visited by late night drunken men. I believe they called her Lucy? She is reported to have given birth to several half human babies. The problem is that she usually kiilled the babies by bathing them immediately in the river as is the Yeti custom. The half human babies could not take the frigid water. What interest me about this is that if it is true...that means they have the same number of chromosones as us. There are similar though much less reported stories about the North American Sasquatch.
posted by
A_Norseman
on April 14, 2005 at 9:34 AM
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Alf, I wasn't saying we descend from present day apes, but from the same
genetic lines as the present day apes. I meant that their ancestors and ours were apes of some sort. In looking this up, however, I find the term 'ape' being used only to refer to the present day species.
Here are a couple of articles of interest:
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/RootWeb/which_of_our_genes_make_us_human.htm
http://www.wsu.edu:8001/vwsu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/overview/overvw1.html
posted by
Ciel
on April 14, 2005 at 8:18 AM
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first male gorilla friend...
posted by
Oceandancer
on April 14, 2005 at 7:23 AM
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Out of my depth in this convo
I did watch a documentary about Koko the gorilla, recently. So marvelous and sad, too. Her first male friend told the story of the men killing his mother when he was captured.
posted by
Oceandancer
on April 14, 2005 at 7:22 AM
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I fell asleep in the river to wake in the ocean
Hi Ciel,
Norseman,you should write more on what you spoke of here in your comment,I only read under spiritual section but am reading your blogs if any after.a Beagle lives with me mother and father,the name Beagle is from a french derive meaning worthless,yet this dog in our house is an innocent source of love,I mean I cant pass the dog without feeling a lifting compliment or good attitude to be with its presence in playing watching,everything the dog is is rewarding to myself.when reading this blog I thought of training and how animals are trained to be what we feel is good.that training itself from the animals ,seems entirely from guilt,if the animal stooled or shat in the living room it will act the guilt in its behaviour as recognizing its wrong or what we teach as wrong.Norseman I believe the Wolf is a perfect example in evolution,as order in the pack and hunting.Ciel right now in writing this I cmpletely forgot what your post was on.On gmail I have raced my thoughts and have nothing important I feel to sayt I do have is questions more philosophy based,the chakras seem so valuable and at the same time I care nothing to grow or expand this understanding that wa a new eye opener when first experienced hats where the question is.you spoke of writing a blog on the effect of "trying" and I feel as being the opposite.I dont have the motive for this and I do try but I feel it should be without the trying.
thank you
jeremy
posted by
appleworks7
on April 14, 2005 at 7:18 AM
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Ciel...
Good post. I just love stuff about our ape cousins. I find it so interesting. Actually though, I believe our DNA is closer to the Orangutang than that of the chimp...I'll have to check that out now.
While there is undoubtably more similarities than there are differnces between us and apes, I must play devils advocate for a moment...it's just what I do. I don't believe there is any conclusive proof of trans specis evolution, if there is I would love to see it, but there isn't. Therefore, I think the statement that we sprang from apes would be incorrect.
Evolution is undeniable within any given specis. Look at the wolf, no mammal specis has been more manipulated than it has. Out of the wolf has sprung every breed of dog we have today, but they are all still one specis and can reproduce with each other because they have the same number of chromosones.
This is quickly becoming a post in itself so I will quit. To sum up my wordy comment I will just say that I think chimps, Orangutangs, Gorrillas, and humans are related in the same way the Zebras, horses, and donkeys are. Very similar yet distinctly different specis that have always been different and unique unto themselves. Did we have a common ancestor? Maybe, maybe not, there is no evidence or proof that we did or that we didn't...so I guess anything is still possible.....what say you?
posted by
A_Norseman
on April 14, 2005 at 12:43 AM
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