The Golden View > Comments on Jesus on Karma and Grace-- Part 9

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My dear friend, GM

Just saw your comment on Obama in FSI's blog, and clicked your's to find if youve written anything? 

posted by anib on November 5, 2018 at 4:56 AM | link to this | reply

I love Grace

posted by Shams-i-Heartsong on October 24, 2018 at 1:24 AM | link to this | reply

Still waiting GM

posted by anib on September 8, 2018 at 8:57 PM | link to this | reply

Dear GM

Waiting anxiously for your further writes

posted by anib on August 21, 2018 at 10:39 PM | link to this | reply

Re: My Good Friend GM

I am, really speaking, delighted at this ongoing discussion of ours. What I like about you is that rare passion, the hunger, to learn things to be known first hand without any bias. It'll be my pleasure to share my thoughts on the three-fold miseries and Krishna's Prasade sarva dukkhanam hanir asyopajayste / prassana cetaso hy asu buddhih paryavatishthste. These are, and for me as well at one time, were tongue twisters, but now no longer so.I'll dwell on these, they're worth.... just for the sake of intellectual satisfaction? 

posted by anib on August 1, 2018 at 1:19 AM | link to this | reply

My Good Friend Anib

I agree with you that there a chasm between what is good and right, and what is wrong or bad.  You and I see it clearly, and we try to stay on the "good" side of the chasm, by loving people and doing our moral duties.  This is a clear moral duality to me, between good and evil. 

But pure non-dualist teachings, such as that taught by Lao Tzu, Buddha, the Vedanta in Hinduism, and a whole slew of modern teachers,  say clearly that there is no evil, and no wrong, and no mistakes.  Further, we are all part of God, little pieces of God so to speak (Brahman in Hinduism), so the thief and murderer are to be regarded as part of ourselves, doing no wrong, and we are to take no action to stop them, but instead endlessly love and forgive them, until they stop themselves, even if it takes them millenia.  That allows for a lot of needless carnage, pain and suffering of their victims. It is the stupidest and least moral thing we could do.

This makes no sense to me, and I regard it as a form of spiritual insanity, or moral insanity.  I can understand that we all have a divine nature, part of God, so to speak. This makes us all related as spiritual brothers and sisters, and made from the same stuff.  Jesus taught this, as a reason to love each other as we love ourself.  But this shared divinity is largely irrelevant.  It is like saying we all have red blood and breathe oxygen.....  SO WHAT???   It is our differences that are more important,  what we are DOING with our divine nature and energy and free will. 

And I have no desire to eventually merge back with all souls and with God, becoming a formless drop in a formless ocean.  I have no desire to exist in a formless realm where nothing is considered right or wrong.  To me, this would be the worst Hell one could imagine.  

I think these teachings are a diversion and a distraction, to keep us from doing what is right, to keep us from avoiding what is wrong.  I think these teachings keep us away from our full potential, instead of leading us to our full potential.    And these teachings come "from the top" of the various religions that espouse them.  It makes me very suspicious of the true motives of our cosmic superiors.  So there you have my full disclosure. 

But I still would like to know more about Prasada.  In your quote, what are the "three-fold miseries" of material existence that Prasada relieves?  What does it mean that with the understanding of Prasada, "all dualities of right and wrong are mitigated at once"?  You have tried to explain the mitigating, which led us to the chasm between good and evil, right and wrong, which leads us back to duality.  I don't know if this is worth discussing anymore,  but I will soon have a post about the absurd non-dualist teachings I have been reading lately.  But you can relax, none of them are Hindu,  LOL.  

posted by GoldenMean on July 31, 2018 at 9:50 PM | link to this | reply

Re: A few more thougts ___

Mitigating all dualities of right and wrong does not really mean 'a total wiping off' or obliterating the discerning sense of good or bad. Quite on the contrary, upon receiving His Grace, one sees absolutely clearly the chasm between what is good and right and what is wrong or bad. His repentance on as to how so long he remained oblivious of this 'duality' cringes his heart until he cries out at his folly and he can just not forgive himself. Grace is consequent to repentance from the heart, only then does God's Grace (which you rightly call the Covenant of Grace) descends. I know I'm repeating but it is to stress home a fact (like 'the rhetoric' in poetry), which I read in the Gita and your fine sense sensing it instinctively. That is where I salute you. There are great names in translations or interpreters in the Gita but many do not match with my way of thinking and that is why I feel so attached to this scripture that it should be so vast in its scope of things that anything and everything is subject to misinterpretations but seems to fit in even when they are not. Just as is your wont, I too tend to disagree until  find an answer that satisfies me, and then I otally change their versions to that of mine.

posted by anib on July 31, 2018 at 4:10 AM | link to this | reply

Dear GoldenMean

My many apologies for the typo. It is indeed "no longer" and not 'in longer'. In longer makes no sense at all. Another mistake .... please replace the word "blessing" by "God's Grace". Many thanks sir, for pointing out that error. Actually I wrote the comment when I was about to leave the university, it then struck me and was praying that you do not read until I have corrected the translation. I just arrived home and opened to make changes, and lo! I find you there already. Btw, it impressed me greatly wise friend. I am fully with you that it is senseless to assert man commits no wrong! He commits so continuously but the essential thing is that he never learns from past mistakes. Those who do, become qualified to receive Grace, and it is this qualififying and receiving that changes one qualitatively, everything he then does is done with a discerning mind, he knows now that acts like rape, predatory evils for self aggrandizemrnt to the detriment or irreparable loss and sorrows left behind for others in the process, are all so reprehensible and why was he doing it until now, after all. Once such a thought assails the evildoer, God is quick to forgive, He knows that such a person with true repentance is no longer a threat to the society. Then descends God's Grace. I was surprised that you so pointedly hit the nail on its head. And that is where you drew my respect. This version of Prasada as 'Grace' only very few would know. The other meaning which you found out is current that food is first offered to God and the remnants may then be consumed which, symbolically, will also make our thoughts actions pure. It's been a very lively discussion with your careful and analytical observations, call it the 'eye'. Thanks a ton GM.

posted by anib on July 31, 2018 at 3:19 AM | link to this | reply

RDer

posted by anib on July 31, 2018 at 2:42 AM | link to this | reply

Anib

Thank you for this translation, which I never expected and I am in great respect and gratitude of.  It is your particular gift, and I thank you for it.  While waiting for your reply,  I researched the word "prasada",  and it revealed something similar, but yet quite different, from your translation of the ancient Indian scripture.

Nowadays, "prasada" is considered to a be an offering of food,  which is presented to God, in a ceremonial gesture vaguely similar to the Catholic ritual to make food holy.  The "prasada" is left on an altar for a while, to give God a chance to partake of it, making it holy,  then the food is eaten by the worshippers, taking its blessings into themselves. 

This is not what I meant by the gift of Grace, or the Covenant of Grace.  The giving of grace (undeserved forgiveness) to us from God, is much more profound than the blessing of food. The gift of Grace forgives all our sins, and erases the need for karma.  This would supercharge and streamline our spiritual growth.  But I find some similarity to Grace in your translation. 

Your translation of the ancient text reveals something grander, more significant, and more essential than the blessing of food.  Your translation mentions some vitally important concepts, such as the three-fold miseries of material existence, and the mitigating of all dualities of right and wrong. 

This disturbs me a bit, because I am beginning to understand the extreme destructive nature of obliterating all right and wrong.  This is called non-dualism, and our friend Shams-I-Song here on Blogit is a strong believer.  This is a recurring theme in many current New Age teachings:  that "WE CAN DO NOTHING WRONG".  Your translation tells me that it is an age-old theme that goes back 5 or 6 thousand years.  That is somewhat discouraging to me.....  

Why?  Because I strongly disagree with this assertion, that "we can do nothing wrong".  I think we are all doing things wrongly every moment of every day, because we are being deceived and held back,  and we would benefit more from being helped to understand our wrong thinking, and learn more of the truth that is being withheld from us.  We are trying to learn to do things right, but we are not getting much help (if any)  from our cosmic superiors.  

Also, when we do things wrong, other people get hurt or die.  Think of drunk drivers, or an engineer designing a bridge that falls down, killing many people.  How can these mistakes not be "WRONG"?  They are very wrong, and harmful, and destructive.  How about outright crimes,  such as rape, murder, genocide?  How are these not "WRONG"?  They are very wrong,  and those who say that there is no wrong,  are very wrong themselves,  and this moral movement of "you can do nothing wrong" disturbs me greatly.  And we are told, by some new voices, that the great teachers such as Buddha and Jesus taught this.  I think we are being misled.  

Now let me ask about a particular word in your translation.  Could it be that your translation "exist in longer" should be "exist no longer"?  The meaning of that one 2-letter word makes a tremendous difference in the message, and how we should proceed, if we accept it.  

posted by GoldenMean on July 31, 2018 at 2:40 AM | link to this | reply

This is how it reads:

prasāde sarva-duḥkhānāḿ
hānir asyopajāyate
prasanna-cetaso hy āśu
buddhiḥ paryavatiṣṭhate. (ChII, verse 65)

One who is a recipient of God's blessings (Prasada), to such a one, the three-fold miseries of material existence exist in longer, and with such understanding all dualities of right and wrong are mitigated at once, the sharp intellect (lying dormant until now) is soon established.


posted by anib on July 31, 2018 at 1:37 AM | link to this | reply

Anib

I did not know about this prasada.  I will have to look into it.  Thanks for mentioning it. 

posted by GoldenMean on July 30, 2018 at 7:17 AM | link to this | reply

I am surprised that your Covenant of Grace should match so closely with that of the concept of  'prasada' in the Gita. I may contribute on the concept sometimes. Very Well Done!

posted by anib on July 28, 2018 at 8:45 AM | link to this | reply

Anib

Our time for writing comes and goes,  and alas,  our cycles are not matching!  But I glanced at your new post, and I will read it better and comment.  I look forward to your thoughtful comments here.  I am developing some new ideas about karma, that you should find very interesting.  

posted by GoldenMean on July 24, 2018 at 6:22 AM | link to this | reply

Hi GM bro,

I've a whole lot to catch up. Just not finding that space where I can read or write. I've, however, posted one today which, I'm sure, you would like. I must quickly read your last two posts.

posted by anib on July 24, 2018 at 6:05 AM | link to this | reply

Karma does make a lot of sense to me.

posted by FormerStudentIntern on July 23, 2018 at 11:43 AM | link to this | reply

Corbin

Thanks much for your compliment.  Sometimes when I am writing, I think of a counterpoint that would occur to an opposing view, and I have to address it briefly.  My mother does this in her long talks, and my father always called it "chasing rabbits" and told her "get back to the point!!"  But her rabbit chases go on and on for a long time, and sometimes she forgets what her main point was, LOL. 

posted by GoldenMean on July 23, 2018 at 8:31 AM | link to this | reply

I haven't read the whole thing yet but the last paragraph is sure right on.  My eyes are bothering me tonight with the computer screen lit up.    Daylight is better computer reading for me so I'll come back in the morning.

posted by TAPS. on July 22, 2018 at 8:54 PM | link to this | reply

Thank you so much for sharing this......it's always a pleasure to read your religious posts.  So many of your asides offer  additional pathways for the same point of view.

posted by Corbin_Dallas on July 22, 2018 at 5:14 PM | link to this | reply

Kabu

That (karma) is indeed included in the Covenant of Law. My hypothesis is that the newer Covenant of Grace, offered to us by Jesus, is a way to escape karma and have our moral debt wiped clean.  Thanks for reading and commenting! 

posted by GoldenMean on July 22, 2018 at 4:46 PM | link to this | reply

Interesting Sunday read. Some very strong argument put forward. my own faith is that there is Karma and there are times in this life let alone the next when Karma catches up with a person. just my own Faith....not trying to preach to anyone else.

posted by Kabu on July 22, 2018 at 4:10 PM | link to this | reply

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