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Nautikos
Naut, I think everyone has already expressed much of what I was thinking. :) 
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on June 30, 2017 at 11:07 AM
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Re: Blackcat
Yes, there are many Muslims, perhaps the majority, who are peaceful and would not hurt us, nor prevent us from being Christians. These are basically good, ethical people, who were born into a Muslim society or family, and must conform to it, but they make the best of it. I have some Muslim customers, home builders, who I consider friends. They are just as upset at ISIS as we are, but they claim that ISIS is not Islam. Naut and I are trying to show that ISIS definitely is Islamic, in the purest sense of the religion, imitating and following the horrific actions of the founder, the mass murderer Mohammed.
There is some Muslim reform being attempted. For example, there is a great debate going on about the meaning of Jihad. The reformers say Jihad is an internal conflict, within each Muslim, fighting the devil and the human impulses inside us, to follow the peaceful and loving teachings of Allah. I am not following this debate anymore, but I don't think the reformers are making any headway against the orthodox. The reformers are being attacked as heretics.
The Koran is deep, and deceptive. One must read it as a message TO MUSLIMS, not to the rest of us. So when the Koran calls for peace and love, it means BETWEEN MUSLIMS only, while they are oppressing, enslaving and killing the rest of us.
In great contrast, the Bible is written as God's message to all mankind, with the New Testament bringing an end to strict enforcement of Law.
posted by
GoldenMean
on June 30, 2017 at 8:17 AM
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Re: GoldenMean
This is why I have admitted that I have never studied religion. Thank you for this explanation. I will admit that I do not like the religion. But I'm torn at a personal level because I know Muslims who are not evil. I do not know how to reconcile the two. It doesn't feel black and white.
This is not an excellent example, but it feels a bit like the argument around guns. Guns were made for one main purpose. To kill or harm another living thing. But not all gun owners are evil. Nor can the guns "make" them hurt someone. If someone belongs to the NRA, they are not bad people. But bad people should not own guns.
It's a difficult thing to reconcile. If there is no reformed view of the Koran, then I do not understand how it is that we have so many peaceful Muslims. Unless, similar to how I do not agree with so many rules of the Catholic faith, they simply identify as Muslim but they do not truly believe all of the teachings? I also have a hard time understanding how it happens that people would agree to join a religion of hate. Perhaps like Scientology... they are isolated and simply don't know any better....
posted by
-blackcat
on June 30, 2017 at 7:51 AM
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Yes I turn up like a scarecrow listening, and maybe it is good that some become worried. 
posted by
C_C_T
on June 30, 2017 at 12:40 AM
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Very interesting post, and comments from everyone who made comments. The first time I read through it, I thought your BC was BC-A and I couldn't keep my mind on it because I thought you were referring to a man you were calling a "her". When I finally realised you were talking about -blackcat, I had to go back and read it again. LOL
posted by
TAPS.
on June 29, 2017 at 8:35 PM
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Hi Naut! Will revisit later, hopefully.
posted by
Sea_Gypsy
on June 29, 2017 at 6:23 PM
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Tired and worried dear Naut; and just letting you know I care by showing up at your post.
posted by
Kabu
on June 29, 2017 at 6:16 PM
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Well, darn it.....
.... I could not get the video to embed here, or maybe this will do it:
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posted by
GoldenMean
on June 29, 2017 at 5:07 PM
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Video on the spread of Islam
I posted this video before, but many of you have not seen it. It is well worth watching, based on accurate historical research. You will be impressed, and you will be glad you took the few minutes to watch it.
src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/I_To-cV94Bo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen>
posted by
GoldenMean
on June 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
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Blackcat
The things you refer to in the "Christian Bible"..... stoning, wiping out people of another religion, etc...... are in the Old Testament, and under the Jewish Law of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is Jewish, and the New Testament is Christian, a great reform of Judaism, based on a new covenant of grace. You are using the same argument as Muslims themselves, pointing to all the violence in the Old Testament, while ignoring all the horrific violence in the Koran. The Muslims need a "New Koran", if they are really going to have any effective reform.
Naut's last 2 llines distill the essence of of the two religions. You must also study the history of the founders of the religions. Jesus never hurt anyone, healed many, and allowed himself to be horribly tortured and killed on the cross. Mohammed was a thief, an abuser of women (and everyone else), a torturer, a mass murderer, and a slavemaster.
On top of that, after the founders, there is a stark difference. Christianity was persecuted for 3 centuries, and yet it managed to spread all around the Mediteranean because of its teachings of love and tolerance. Islam, starting with Mohammed himself, began bloody Jihad right away, persecuting everyone else, and spread itself by sword and conquest. You saw my post about what they did in India for 1000 years. They did much the same everywhere else they spread to. And of course, they are still doing it today.
The difference between the two religions could not be greater. Regardless of what the followers do or have done in different times of history, Christianity is majoratively good or service-to-others, Islam is majoratively evil or service-to-self, and abusive of others.
posted by
GoldenMean
on June 29, 2017 at 4:39 PM
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I'm pretty sure not many of us can reach that standard of agape
and acceptance that so many believe is the ideal. I do not believe that all people are benign and giving, but that the majority would help a stranger in need. I do believe that some people use their particular religion as a crutch to support their intolerance and their personal desire for violence. It makes me so tired.
posted by
Pat_B
on June 29, 2017 at 10:51 AM
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Re:
I'm not sure why it deleted half the quote.... this is the quote I'm referring to...
In this statement: BC agrees that ‘all bets are off’ when one’s faith harms others, but collectively we are a long way from arriving at that position
posted by
-blackcat
on June 29, 2017 at 9:59 AM
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Such a good post... thanks for the compliments on my own. Though I must make one correction. In this statement: we are a long way from arriving at that position.
Where you say "one's faith," I would insert the word "one individual." I don't believe that one's faith can harm another. I believe that one individual can harm another. The person may blame it on their faith or any number of things...
Also, I am admittedly not a religious scholar, but I'm fairly certain that though we can find tolerance and love as the theme in the Christian Bible, it also has many statements against other religions... other lifestyles... notes who among us shall be stoned... and even condones slavery. Extremists (potentially Nazis? kkk?) choose to use it as the basis for their violence...
I also have many Jewish friends... most who are reformed and a couple who are Orthodox. The Orthodox follow such strict regiments in their life that it's faschinating, but they also make women sit in the back of the temple, separated from men. I am unsure what they truly think of those who are unlike them.
Can those of Muslim background not also be reformed or are we to consider all of them to be extremists? I understand when you say the basis for Islam is in hate and violence... but I have a hard time with this concept because I have worked with Muslims, one who was a true friend to me, and I never saw an ounce of evil in him.
posted by
-blackcat
on June 29, 2017 at 9:58 AM
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The amount of tolerance that the religious and secular Westerners are showing when it comes to Islam is very dangerous, indeed.It is going to take a lot for the West to change its thoughts. Sadly, it seems lots and lots of carnage is going to have to occur before such a change in thought occurs.
posted by
FormerStudentIntern
on June 29, 2017 at 9:24 AM
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