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Naut

We seem to be going to each other's blogs,  to answer issues in the other blog.  This is a confusing process,  so I thought I would post my comment in your latest blog here.  The blogs are sharing a lot of subect material,  so my answer to you there,  will also serve as my answer here,  or so I hope:

"There is so much that the mainstream 'lamestream' media does not report or even care about,  concerning Islam. But we don't need them,  because we have you!

An excellent commentary on the unliklihood of Islamic reform.  But reform of Christianity probably seemed equally unlikely at the start and the spread of the Catholic Inquisition,  which was a pretty mean 'jihad' in itself.  The main difference is that the Inquisiton was policing Christian society internally,  and not trying to spread Christianity 'by the sword'.  Sadly,  that is the main thing that Islamic jihad does,  and has done quite well over the past 1400 years.  

Still,  I have some hope that the peaceful Muslims  (and that is probably the majority)  will somehow achieve doctrinal reform,  so that at least Muslims will have a choice,  like the choice Christians have between Catholic and Protestant.

They currently do have a choice between Sunni and Shiite,  but that is just different flavors of murder.  I mean a choice that will de-fang jihad,  like interpreting it as an internal struggle within each Muslim,  which is an interpretation I have read about."

posted by GoldenMean on May 19, 2017 at 3:44 PM | link to this | reply

GM

Of course there are dissenting voices, as there always have been. even in Islam. The whole Sufi tradition might be seen as one! Unfortunately all that is significant only for interesting 'theoretical' purposes - for all practical ones it's irrelevant! The massive fact remains - the overwhelming majority of Muslims represents the 'nurturing community' for all jihadists! And of course by jihad we're not only speaking of the violent forms, the 'jihad by the sword', but increasingly the less dramatic but equally dangerous forms that exploit our misplaced collective 'tolerance of the intolerant' and subvert our democratic institutions...Keepin mind that one of the Commandments of the PC religion is 'Thou shalt not spesk ill of Islam', something that has recently been turned into a real law in this country of mine, Canada...

posted by Nautikos on May 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM | link to this | reply

Anib--  thanks for explaining talaq,  which I guess means divorce.  I have heard that a Muslim man can divorce his wife simply by saying "I divorce you" three times.

Naut--  the specific mistakes that "good" or "moderate" Muslims should recognize are Sharia Law,  Jihad,  and caliphates (the Muslim religion taking over the government).  I don't know what Islam would look like without those core beliefs or practices,  but that would be essential to a reform of Islam.

posted by GoldenMean on May 16, 2017 at 6:06 AM | link to this | reply

Re: GM

Triple Talaq is system whereby a Muslim man can obtain divorce from his wife, I'm sure you know they can marry four by law, by merely pronouncing Talaq, Talaq, Talaq, and the marriage is on the docks for the poor lady. I must then read JoanofFrance 

 

posted by anibanerjee on May 15, 2017 at 9:08 PM | link to this | reply

Naut

Specifically,  you could say that the Protesants learned from the "mistakes" of Catholic Crusade and Inquisition,  largely by bleeding and losing their loved ones to it.  I am sure I could find historical record of Catholics who felt that Crusade and Inquisition were horrific mistakes,  and protested against them in some form. 

But it would have been better for me to say simply that Christianity has accomplished REFORM, and the Catholics are no longer trying exterminate other Christians that do not agree with their beliefs.  The Muslims have not accomplished any significant reform.

There are also some Muslim reform movements,  who I have read of,  who probably see jihad and seeking caliphates as mistakes,  but they are not gaining ground like the Protestants did in Christianity.  

posted by GoldenMean on May 15, 2017 at 2:46 PM | link to this | reply

GM

Interesting - I learned something! I know of the persecution of the Albigenses, of course, but never bothered to find out details of their beliefs.

But I need to address this issue of Christians 'having learned from their mistakes' and Muslims having not done so. To put it in the simplest terms possible in a comment - a change in thinking and acting is the result of many factors, not because people suddenly recognized their 'mistake'! That is merely an ex-post-facto explanation, not a real one...

And what 'mistakes' should the Muslims recognize? The loss of Andalus? The loss of Palestine? They have recognized those, and they are working hard to correect them. es'. What's more, they're working hard at finally conquering the rest of Europe, and successfully so, aided by massive European ignorance, indifference, loss of purpose and culturally entrenched feelings of guilt. Aided also, of course, by current political 'elites' and a massive demographic fact: The dying out of the indigenous European population.

The Muzzies aren't making any mistakes - they're winning. And unless there's a drastic change (an election victory by Marine Le Pen's would have helped) Western Civ is doomed, though you and I won't be around to witness the end. And if our naive folks here in North America think it's just happening 'over there', I've got news for them...

 

posted by Nautikos on May 15, 2017 at 7:27 AM | link to this | reply

Anib

What is 'triple talaq'? I will have to Google it.  Funny you mention Joan of Arc.  We currenty have a blogger,  Joanofrance,  who was told that she is the reincarnation of Joan of Arc,  but she does not believe it.  Thanks for pointing out parallels of the Catholic mistreatment of young and brave Joan of Arc,  with the current Muslim mistreatment of women.  That makes me think of the hundreds of poor school girls who were kidnapped by the Muslim jihadist group Boko Haram in Nigeria,  or some other African country.

posted by GoldenMean on May 15, 2017 at 4:14 AM | link to this | reply

Sorry, system appeared twice. 

posted by anibanerjee on May 14, 2017 at 10:10 PM | link to this | reply

GoldenMean

The medieval French system of Inquisition system was a barbaric, shame of Europe of which I read in Bernard Shaw's Joan of Arc, a very young poor peasant girl who claimed that she heard voices from God which the Church considered sacrilege, and she was declared a heretic, burnt at the stake, canonised later, and declared a saint in 1920s or thereof. It is the real picture of the convoluted Muslim laws as is being practised today. The Supreme Court of India has declared that 'triple talaq' is not fundamental to Qu'ran and is such a regressive law as to shame humanity as a whole to which the Muslim fanatics, especially the clerics who have an incentive in making the uneducated of their people believe in male domination and supremacy over torturing their womenfolk. They feel a sexual gratification and pleasure from only that which s wrong in the eyes f the civilized world. It is sure to embroil into jihadic fight. I am watching the developments with interest. 

posted by anibanerjee on May 14, 2017 at 10:09 PM | link to this | reply

Kabu

I completely agree with you.  I am merely retelling stories of history,  that most people have never heard of,  and don't care about.  I am very pleased that I have struck a harmonious chord with you,  who obviously has studied and cared about history a great deal.

I agree that the horrific history of Crusade and Inquisition have NOTHING TO DO with real Christianity!!  It is a history of the ABUSE and HIJACKING of Christianity by abusive evil predators. 

But my point is.....  it has happened before,  and it could happen again.  Especially in the Muslim religion,  which has never really had a respite or rescue from its darkest followers.  Christianity has learned from its mistakes and matured into a truly good religion.  Islam has not done so,  and that is where all this discussion is leading....... Cheers

posted by GoldenMean on May 13, 2017 at 8:50 AM | link to this | reply

The first Crusade before ever setting out for the Holy land, killed a huge number of German Jewish people. Religious wars have managed to kill countless numbers of innocents. The inquisition is a blight upon Christianity and none of the atrocities committed in the name of God or his son have anything to do with God whatever  religion you are. \it is bigtry and terrorism and greed.

posted by Kabu on May 13, 2017 at 7:29 AM | link to this | reply

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