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The church is no better or worse than most institutions in this regard...
The answer to pedophilia is to exterminate all practicioners of this vile excuse for sexuality. Rape is the theft of a soul. Rape of a child is twice as bad as that of an adult...we should bring back the cross for the elimination of all such evil. Unitl society is willing to use it's oun rite of extreme sanction on such offenders the world will not change.
posted by
jimmy68
on
January 29, 2004
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12:25 AM
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Shawn, thanks for the moral and verbal support. I've gotten very little of either from anyone.
Rovesciato: If my church were suddenly found to be covering up such atrocities for 30 years, no one would have to "suggest" to me that I leave. I'd get out of there the very same day the truth came out. But that's just me.
posted by
Passionflower
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January 28, 2004
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8:48 PM
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Ariala, i'm not Catholic
but that is what many Catholics believe and that is what the Church is supposed to be based on. It is the one true Chruch and God speaks through it. if some of that flesh is dammed that isn't for the fold to question. All i'm saying is that walking up to a devout Catholic at telling them that they should leave the Church for any reason is spiritually violent. they believe that they can only comune with God through the Church and asking them to throw it away is every bit as wrong as Catholics excommunicating individuals for communing with God outside of mass.
posted by
rovesciato
on
January 28, 2004
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6:51 PM
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Shawn, you've been reading the tabloid history
and Stalin easily beat out the death count, all 1800 years worth, in two decades. Besides, much of the Catholic violence outside of inquisitions, bad enough in themselves, was either the work of dukes and kings with decidedly secular motives or bloody brawls between public rabbles. The Church has pleanty of problems, but it has never been any more swift to strike at an opponent than you are yourself.
posted by
rovesciato
on
January 28, 2004
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6:43 PM
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rovesciato, I take great offense at what you're saying. I left the Catholic
church and I DID find God, FINALLY! Please don't judge Protestants as if we're lost. We are not your departed brethren...we are God's children and He looks at the heart not the denomination or the building where you worship.
posted by
Ariala
on
January 28, 2004
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6:40 PM
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the Catholic Church is not a political party
you don't just change sides because you don't like the way some people in leadership are behaving. For a Catholic the Catholic Church is the word of GOD. To leave the Church is to reject God. You don't just casually walk down the street and try out the Episcopaleans, the Church is the body of the Lord and when you're within His Church you are within His presence. Protestants committed themselves to a church of one when they broke away from the Church and for them every congregation is spiritually volentary, but not so for the Catholic Church. I agree that child abuse is among the most disgusting of crimes, but asking people who believe in sanctity of the Catholic Church to throw away their hope for salvation because somewhere among the hundreds of millions there are some abuses, child molestation and other, is almost violent. You might as well ask people to leave their homeland because there has been abuse in their government.
also, this argument, how can you support an organization when you know that some in that organization are doing evil things, is a poor one, unless that evil is part of the explicit or primary purpose of that organization. Thus, why don't you leave the Nazis because they killing Jews, makes sense. Your argument makes sense to you because you want other people's behavior to change. But if you take a good look i think you'll find that there are a number of things that you do without bad intentions, even casually, that have inderect repurcussions on people, many involving trauma and death. We all do. And i don't doubt that you'll be as effective as the rest of us in finding some reason not to change your own behavior.
posted by
rovesciato
on
January 28, 2004
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6:36 PM
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I see that the mindless have answered in sufficient numbers (DemsAreEvil, IfyouPlease, etc.) for me to at least provide a meaningful, thoughtful, and intelligent response.
Your "tirades" are deserved, my friend. Don't let these herd animals scare you. As a former, and recovering, Catholic, the time is way past due to demand justice from this institution. Long, long ago--if it ever did--the Church abandoned the teachings of Jesus, opting instead to go with St. Paul's twisted view of things. More evil--murders, mutilations, bigotry--have been perpetuated by the Church than any other known institution on earth. The fact that priests have been victimizing children is just another in a series of evils that the Church has allowed, perpetuated, and covered up.
Don't let these idiots intimidate or scare you. You have people who will stand behind you. I'm one of them. (And they hate me, because they can't beat me.) So stand proud and speak your mind.
Shawn
posted by
ShawnMichel
on
January 28, 2004
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11:35 AM
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Well, I'm fond of Bush.
posted by
TARZANA
on
January 28, 2004
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6:00 AM
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How?
"One thing I want to mention though is this: No one has yet to address the issue I brought up. All your comments have been angry tirades against my opinion. No one has yet to explain to me how this could happen in America, and for 30 long years be hidden away by your church's leaders."
Ren,
HOW could it happen?
Answer: LIBERALISM.
posted by
DEMSareEVIL
on
January 27, 2004
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11:48 PM
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Well, I just think that we should be careful to inform our children to tell
us if anybody makes them feel uncomfortable. I'm not going to do this church thing with my kids. Treating some person as holy and expecting them to behave like they can do no wrong doesn't fit with personal experience. If we don't give that impression to our kids, then they would not be afraid to speak up if a person bothers them. I could spend the rest of my life telling you that you were all such perfect friends to me every step of the way, but we all know from my blogs that this is not true. And I'm sorry for being a bad friend too.
posted by
TARZANA
on
January 27, 2004
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7:36 PM
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Itlmac, I would welcome your post on this subject. I don't think it's right that we just go on with business as usual when something like this happens. Add to that the fact that there are still plenty of pedophiles in the Catholic church disguised as people you can trust. Please write something.
posted by
Passionflower
on
January 27, 2004
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5:26 PM
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oops, my bad Gome...
I mis-read that first sentence. I apologize for that boo-boo. Sorry I'm illiterate, duh!
ltlmac70
posted by
superflymom119
on
January 27, 2004
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2:21 PM
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I had to ditto Ren's reply to Gome...
and also add my well wishes to him and my sorrow for his childhood experience. I don't know how to say it except that, I'm sorry for All those young boys who suffered that. Also glad I could add to your point Ren, I don't think all Catholics are bad for what happened. On the other hand, I don't think it's right to bury heads in the sand pretending like there nothing seriously wrong either. I should do my own blog, but I don't want to steal your thunder here. My comments on this topic could go on for days, so I'll just stop there. Once again, good post. Later...
ltlmac70
posted by
superflymom119
on
January 27, 2004
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2:19 PM
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Gomedome: Thank you so much!!! Yours is the first intelligent answer I've gotten. Up to now, people have posted shit about how much they love the masses, about how happy they are with their religion, about how old and how big the Catholic Church is, and about how stupid I am for not understanding.
In your comment you very clearly give us some facts and details that do help to clear up the matter and I wish you would consider writing a full post about it. You obviously know alot more about Catholics than me. Thanks for giving me a sane answer.
posted by
Passionflower
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January 27, 2004
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2:07 PM
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Actually, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Itlmac, thanks for putting it so succinctly. SUPPORTING KNOWN EVIL WITHIN THE LEADERSHIP THRU SILENT FOLLOWING CONDONES THE EVIL. What I would do and what I have suggested here is that you get out of the Catholic Church today. Do not give them anymore of your time or money. If millions of Catholics would do this, then it would send a powerful message all the way to Rome.
posted by
Passionflower
on
January 27, 2004
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2:02 PM
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Ren3 I can shed a bit of light on this subject.
Fortunate enough not to have been subjected to molestation myself while I was imprisoned in an 18th century ...no make that medeival Catholic school for 8 years.....but some of my peers growing up were not so lucky First off to suggest that subscription to this religion did not suffer because of this ongoing transgression is not quite accurate...The Roman Catholics suffered a great deal in terms of participation worldwide in their services. Still do as a matter of fact with the public relations backlash a disaster from it. If your question was why was the outrage not more pronounced or dramatic? ...one must put the crime and it's perpetrators into perspective. The Roman Catholic church is still one of the largest of Christian based denominations boasting some 700 - 900 million members worldwide. The perpetrators of the crimes were really a miniscule percentage of it's clergy and certainly did not affect every single church.
The school/church/mission/convent/prison that I went to was probably one of the worst cases in our country's history...it is closed today as a result of this crime. Victims are still lining up in court.
The why it happened is only slghtly more definable than the scope of it all. Simply a celebate clergy does not work very well in a modern era and the Catholic church itself moves very slowly in terms of societal change.
How slow they move towards change cannnot be understated. Back in the early 60's I was forced to memorize meaningless Latin phrases and Excorcism was still on the books as a means of dealing with everything from Toret's syndrome to epilepsy. Ignorance drawn from centuries old practises.
Hardly surprising that as we came into the 20th century and this church's clergy was becoming a breeding ground...no make that a magnet for pedophiles, this monolithic, antiquated, hierarchy first tried sweeping the problem under the carpet and then was painfully slow to accept and react.
Don't mistake this comment for any kind of defense for their actions nor a condemnation of the Church as a whole...just thought you would like to hear from someone who was there and witnessed it, devoid of emotional input or religious dogma.
posted by
gomedome
on
January 27, 2004
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1:57 PM
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Ren...
Great Post...It seems some DON'T believe that supporting known evil within the leadership through silent following condones the evil.
Write On! ltlmac70 wuz here...
posted by
superflymom119
on
January 27, 2004
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1:37 PM
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Ren, what do YOU suggest be done?
posted by
Ariala
on
January 27, 2004
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1:17 PM
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