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This was an excellent post. And the response below by cantey was equally telling.
It is impossible to change what isn't, my friend. It is simply a physical, tautological impossibility. The people that find you offensive and controversial speak from a place that runs like a tape recorder--and one cannot argue with a tape recorder. Your words are powerful and present. I hope that you know when you type them, however, you are "preaching to the choir," in both respects.
I agree with your tack. Completely. I think Jesus did exist, but his teachings have been largely transmuted and edited, to the point now where most of what people say he said just didn't occur. The early Church had much to lose in its day: the last thing they needed was their "Messiah" basically preaching forgiveness and peace, one incapable of miracles beyond his words, one in large agreement with the Jewish authorities of his time, and one who bled. Who cried. Who had a sexual affair (Mary Magdelene). Who had a bad relationship with his mother and family. His faults, and his humanity, make him more real to me. But his teachings have largely been perverted into a magically-thinking, deeply frightened morass of fundamentalistic jingoisms that have no application to either here, to there, or to anywhere.
Shawn
posted by
ShawnMichel
on January 4, 2004 at 7:16 PM
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Not once did I condemn you to hell sir. I would never do that. I would never wish that upon anyone. But hell is real and being honest moral and responsible will not provide salvation from it. You would accuse God of being a monster because of the existence of hell but hell was not created for people. Human beings are not spiritualy soveriegn, we all have a spiritual overlord. When you leave your physical body you will incur the judgement of whatever spiritual overlord you have chosen, Jesus or Satan. To reject Jesus is to be with Satan even if you do not consider yourself a respecter of this fiend, and I am sure you do not. Both of these individuals have been judged. Satan was judged defeted and Jesus righteous when He was raised from the dead.You are not a god unto yourself, even though you have free will. There is no grey area. If your Lord is Satan you will live with him in eternity. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. ( Whichever Lord that is) Let me get something out of the way, You are more educated than me. I am not trying to compete with you. I would only endevour to share with you this Jesus who is quite a remarkable person. I believe a relationship with the Living God is far more valuble than the greatest education. ( I am not trying to say there is anything wrong with education) . I am simply asking that you not accuse my friend of despicable crimes that He has not committed. I find it disturbing and it saddens me that you and others believe these things about Him.. God is as close to you as the air you are breathing right now, and He is light and in Him there is no darkness nor shadow of turning. Since you have allowed me I will point out that Paul is not talking about immaturatity as far as someone acting childish as we think of it. He is saying that the sign of a mature Christian as opposed to a immature Christian is that he or she is fully developed in 1 Cor 13. Fully developed in agape ( selfless, giving expecting nothing in return) If you will refer to your bible it will outline in that passage of scripture what God my Father( yours as well if you choose) wills for His sons and daughters to behave like. This and only this will lead people to accepting Jesus. Love. That is maturity. Being developed and stable in love. In love there is no fear and real christianity is to overcome with agape. God has not given us a spirit of fear but a spirit of power, love( agape)and a sound mind. Agape at all times. Agape the unlovely. Do most Christians do this? Unfortunantly no. Most of them as you know are quite contentious. But I for one endevour to. I am not a religious man, I only enjoy a rich relationship with my creator. I only accepted His invitation. Religion and salvation have nothing to do with one another. I know you must have a thousand good questions about all this, but the only way to understand the Living God and His thoughts and ways is to be born of His Spirit. 2 Cor 2:11-14 " For what person knows and understands what passes through his thoughts except the mans own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we ( Christians ) have not received the spirit that is in the world ( antichrist) but the Holy Spirit Who is from God, given to us that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly bestowed on us by God. And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Holy Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who posses the Holy Spirit. But the natural, non spiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God for they are folly and meaningless nonsense to him; and he is incapable of knowing them because they are spiritualy discerned and estimated and appreciated. You want to talk to God, talk to Him. But remember what scripture says: He that would have a friend must show himself friendly. Approach Him. Do not be afraid. God has made His move in Jesus. Its your move now.
posted by
cantey
on January 4, 2004 at 6:16 PM
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knowledge
Apparently you don't know your "god" as well as you think. As for being a "child of god" you, in fact, once was a child of your mother and father--now you have grown up, I hope. And as Paul said, "it is time to put away childish things." The mark of adulthood is to think for ones self, to be responsible for ones actions and to apply ones life energy towards living an honorable, honest life. Since you are not allowed to think thoughts outside the box of your religion, or else you will be caste into a lake of fire, and since you cannot take responsibility for your own actions, since you need a savior to pay the price of your sins, whatever they be, and since you can't possibly live an honest life, believing your nature is corrupt and needs salvation--than I guess you are still a child, afterall.
If anything written, thus far, is not scriptural, please feel free to point it out. I'm not closed minded, as some folks are. If God wants to come by for some coffee and have a chat about these things, I'd be glad to sit down with him and listen and even ask a few questions of my own. As for being rude, tut-tut, I don't go about condemning others to hell because they don't agree with me or the way I live my life.
FR
posted by
freerain
on January 4, 2004 at 4:53 PM
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this Being that you are accusing of all sorts of crimes and injustices happens to be a very close, dear friend of mine so I would appreciate it if you would stop accusing Him of being a loathsome detestable criminal. I have personal knowledge of Him. You do not. But you COULD if you choose. This is something philosophical athiests and nietzche wannabes do not understand: personal relationship with a real Jesus and there is no philosophical BS you can fling out here that can convince me or any other child of God that A.) he does not exist B.) or he is not the Christian God. C.) He is a psychopath. Call me delusional, weak minded or whatever he is as real to me as your dear loved ones are to you. Can I prove it, no. I dont have to. Show some respect and stop the slander. If you dont like Christians and the bible fine but stop talking about someone you do not know. Its just plain rude.
posted by
cantey
on January 4, 2004 at 2:14 PM
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