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TAPS. - it fits all of the definitions of a true counter-culture
The Left Behind series and its commercial offshoots have generated billions in revenue, much of it through traditionally staid Christian media distribution and the churches themselves. It is officially classified as fiction but somehow has become reference material for a large number of end times scenario believers. The distribution by churches and church groups has had a lot to do with this shift in perception. Endorsements by important Christian church leaders has further elevated its perceived validity.
Ultimately it is all about money and lots of it, negative outcomes be damned.
posted by
gomedome
on March 20, 2012 at 12:04 PM
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Re: gomedome
I'm way behind the times. I had no idea there was a "Left Behind" computer game, let alone any such people in it as "justifiable kills". I don't really understand that way of thinking. I have a difficult time thinking of such as anything to do with one's beliefs about God.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 20, 2012 at 11:26 AM
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TAPS. - I chose that site because it is the best example
But it is by no means unique and by all indications is part of a growing, long evolving movement gaining explosive momentum in parallel with the success of the "Left Behind" series of books, movies and computer games. I do not know if there are reliable numbers of the total adherents but some of the estimates I have heard are scary and if nothing else indicate that this is no longer a fringe belief.
My biggest objection is the unhealthy attitudes it fosters but I can also say that I do not particularly like being characterized as inferior. I also don't find much humor in being depicted as a "justifiable kill" in the Left Behind computer game. To me these things are socially repugnant and completely unacceptable in the 21st century.
posted by
gomedome
on March 20, 2012 at 10:22 AM
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Re: gomedome
I've never seen that site before. Someone has been very busy writing. I found the part about "The Burdensome Stone" fascinating and read clear through the timeline of Israel. If you have been reading all of the articles at this site (I can't believe how many there are) without becoming a convert to believer, I can see why you are upset and fighting against it, though I believe you probably won't even make a dent in the foundation of it all, let alone topple it.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 20, 2012 at 8:52 AM
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TAPS. - you make valid points
But you are speaking of slightly different considerations. When I suggest that we have the right to ask our fellow citizens to "stay in the game" I am speaking of people proliferating undesirable effects on the rest of society derived from a belief in the end times scenario. Specifically the penchant to dismiss issues that concern us all as unimportant (because it will all end anyways), the callous disregard for the rest of mankind and the effort put into preparing for the rapture by some instead of getting on with life. Most of what I am speaking of is encapsulated on this website: HERE
posted by
gomedome
on March 20, 2012 at 8:02 AM
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WileyJohn - thank you - the feeling is mutual
That really is the best way to run an army. I remember in my militia days when we were on a regular army base, the Sunday morning church parades. "Rough Carpenters" (derived from the RC letters of Roman Catholic) formed together, all others (protestants) formed together, then we marched off to our respective churches for service. The names of the religions were not even mentioned. When I realized that the "all others" arrived at the mess hall afterwards 20 minutes before the RCs because their service was shorter, I jumped ship and joined the all others. Not much difference in the services, maybe a little less hoopla and fewer fancy duds in the protestant service but for the most part much the same.
posted by
gomedome
on March 20, 2012 at 7:39 AM
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Thought provoking post. When I say that, it means that I have been thinking on it. In fact, my mind took off in a lot of different directions on different comments that you made, as if I were chasing rabbits and never catching one. I thought about your words "staying in the game" and how, for some people, religion is not considered a game but something dead serious, life consuming, and worth sharing. As for your subject question, drawing the line will never work as a group endeavor because it is, and will always be a personal decision, for some prompted by the Holy Spirit and for others scientific study, logic, or common sense. Personally, I don't think one necessarily excludes the others.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 19, 2012 at 11:23 PM
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Gomedome
All I have to say to you my friend, is that I respect you and what you have to say,and I don't need religion to be able to have a dialogue with you. As a matter of fact, I liked the way it was in the military in my day, when it was against military law to argue law,politics or religion and just keep the peace. 
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 19, 2012 at 9:07 PM
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Katray2 - Re: Excellently written and thought provoking, Gomedome
Thank you. Again you have inadvertently given me more fodder for a future post. I feel we have to accept the fact that it will probably take a few more generations before many of the irrational religious constructs we are continually exposed to against our will become marginalized in our societies. My respect for the beliefs of others is exponentially expanded if the adherant to those beliefs understands that the respect they feel that they are entitled must be reciprocated. Conceding at the outset that there are certainly exceptions, my experience has been that the more fervent the believer, the less likely they are to show any form of respect for the beliefs of others.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:43 PM
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Kabu - thank you for the kind words....actually I was in the shower ...
I thought it funny that you mentioned the student riot in London. That took place 6 blocks away from where I live. I noticed some of the houses in the area coming up for sale this week. I think the owners are over-reacting, there have been problems in that area in the past but this kind of thing is not likely to repeat itself as it was unorganized and impromptu.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:26 PM
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Excellently written and thought provoking, Gomedome
Having an open mind does make it possible to treat the beliefs of others who we don't share the same with as many people enjoy and embrace diversity.
I can respect the beliefs of others if they do not attempt to impose or enforce them on me or others, either through the state or in closer quarters, through thinly veiled threats such as "you're going to burn in hell if you don't believe as I say!" Then I shut them out, walk away or if necessary insist they cease and desist.
posted by
Katray2
on March 19, 2012 at 8:10 PM
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Re: Kabu - thank you for the kind words....actually I was in the shower ...
always a great place for thinking....LOL...when it struck me that I should have added the words that you have written. Harmful or detrimental behaviour....that makes sense.well your terminology but I was on the same wave length.
posted by
Kabu
on March 19, 2012 at 8:09 PM
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Xeno-x - Re: there is a lot of imagination applied here
I was never exposed to the end times stories when I was growing up, it was not part of our backwards catholic brainwashing. Because of this reality, I was first presented with these insane concoctions as an educated adult, with no prior conditioning towards their acceptance. Subsequently I feel I was able to view these stories objectively. My reaction was one of being completely dumbfounded and abhorred. The first things I recognized were the gaping holes in logic and the patchwork of layered and in-cohesive religious constructs. Then there is the comedy of enveloping unwilling participants in the Jewish people as central to the story.
What I found most abhorrent is the fact that I live on a continent with people who believe these things that may number in the millions. Fringe craziness pertaining to religious beliefs is a fact of life but this is far too widespread and accepted to be considered as such.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 8:06 PM
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Kabu - thank you for the kind words
Behavior is much easier to condone or denounce than beliefs. Ultimately the answer to the question I pose may be that our rights to condone or denounce the beliefs of others begins at the point where those beliefs manifest themselves into harmful or detrimental behavior.
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 7:37 PM
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Amanda__ - that may be all we can ask of others
posted by
gomedome
on March 19, 2012 at 7:28 PM
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there is a lot of imagination applied here
take a Bible verse here and a verse there and then --- DANG!!! -- we have enough books written about it to sink a whole fleet of battleships.
most recent is the "Left Behind" series -- books, movies, TV -- and from a couple verses in Matthew 24 which actually describes events already passed and pertaining to what happened to people during hte Romans moving in to suppress the revolt of 68-70 CE.
but a future filed with destruction is good and interesting reading, whether or not it really comes to pass (hasn't for about 2,000 years now)
PS: Read Revelation 1:1 -- "Shortly come to pass" -- Shortly to me has never been 2,000 years.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 19, 2012 at 1:43 PM
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you do give me something to think about each day. It is so good to have you
back amongst us. Where is the line drawn???? There are a lot of World leaders who need to consider this question. We humans do seem to loath and distrust anyone or anything that is different to us and to what we think.
Well I suppose if I am going to draw the line on a groups behaviour recently, it would be the Drunken riots in London Ontario this weekend and further afield, the senseless shooting of the Jewish people in France.
posted by
Kabu
on March 19, 2012 at 10:03 AM
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Hi,
You are absolutely right. We need to stay in the game.
posted by
Amanda__
on March 19, 2012 at 9:53 AM
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