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Re: Re: Despite America's many positive attributes...
That's been all decades of brainwashing of sort. There is no pure "ism" anymore. China, the supposedly communist country, is the world's largest largest lender; Canada, the almost capitalist country, has the best socialized medicine; India, supposedly a socialist country, offers the best & least expensive education and produces some of the world's best engineers....soooo, go figure, what's the "ism" of the day..hahaha!
posted by
ash_pradhan
on September 12, 2009 at 12:09 PM
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isiS_Eyes - thank you but it was so unfair
I feel like I just beat a two year old in arm wrestling . . .
I'm just using the last few days of my subscription, ahem . . . wisely
posted by
gomedome
on September 11, 2009 at 10:43 AM
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benzinha - I can't explain it
I don't know why some people are immediately rendered autistic upon hearing the word socialism. These same people, who wouldn't think twice about checking a book out of their public library or sending their children to a public school, seem not able to understand that both of these longstanding social institutions are socialism in its purest (and most successful) form. A framework proven to be the best way to provide universal health care as witnessed by several successfully run systems in other democracies around the world.
The part I find the most remarkable however is how the defenders of the existing system line up so willingly to be fleeced by insurance companies and for profit health providers. Do they not understand that their country is woefully under-served while obscene amounts of money flow into the pockets of a relatively small number of people becuase of this circumstance? . . . and on top of it all they pay twice as much as citizens from other countries for the privilege of being fleeced and under-served.
posted by
gomedome
on September 11, 2009 at 10:39 AM
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Right on, Grandma
Me, too. In fact, I would like to earn obscene amounts of money so I could be taxed obscene amounts of money to help bail the government out of debt and give most of the rest of it away to help people who really need it just to survive. But then, I'm one of those underprivileged Americans who grew up in a,
gasp!, Democratic household that actually believed in equal opportunity for all. I was further tainted by a Christian upbringing that actually tried to follow the teachings of that Jewish fellow, Jesus. Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as a Democrat who is not a godless atheist in the American South. Not only that, I was actually taught that being a Christian meant I had an obligation to help the poor, the hungry, and the sick without checking out the color of their skin or whether or not they belonged to a politically "correct" religion. It's no wonder I'm so screwed up that I never learned how to become an immigrant-hating, good little conservative, or a card carrying member of the "Christian Right."
posted by
notapoet
on September 11, 2009 at 10:26 AM
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Re: ash_pradhan - Re: Despite America's many positive attributes...
Gomedome, I am SO going to miss your ass-whompings. You're not really leaving are you? And benzhina: You rock.
posted by
myrrhage_
on September 11, 2009 at 9:11 AM
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Re: ash_pradhan - Re: Despite America's many positive attributes...
Exactly, gomedome, the ONLY salvation is the CURsed "Socialized Medicine Option" which would save us all, but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.......put the word 'socialized' in front of anything being considered, as in socially responsible, socially equitable, socially just, socially less expensive and well, it's just not worth implementing as it will surely lead to the dreaded Communism, which always follows.
posted by
benzinha
on September 11, 2009 at 9:08 AM
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ash_pradhan - Re: Despite America's many positive attributes...
The sad truth is that the current effort is already doomed to failure if it does not eliminate the profit being made directly from providing health care.
posted by
gomedome
on September 10, 2009 at 10:39 PM
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Re: Despite America's many positive attributes...
OMGosh, ash_pradhan, that would be MUCH too sensible for America to follow through on. We cannot EVER, in recent history, do the intelligent, practical, economic and decent thing. It's just sooooooooo so UNAmerican.
posted by
benzinha
on September 10, 2009 at 10:29 PM
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RedStatesMan - just as I thought
Whatever the reason you asked me if I agreed with that part of lindo's comment, it was most certainly going to be just another lead in to one of your brainless, irrelevant and moronic arguments. . . . I'm a little disappointed that the focal point of your feeble attempt at manufacturing a completely off topic rebuttal was in fact so feeble. How I react to someone using the word God in a sentence now has something to do with this discussion? This should be considered as dumb by even your incredibly low intellectual standards.
This is funny too: I suggest if anyone wants a laugh to read your comments here then read this accusation ". . . then you respond with juvenile name calling".
Is it temporary amnesia that makes you say things like that or are you really that obtuse?
posted by
gomedome
on September 10, 2009 at 10:25 PM
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Despite America's many positive attributes...
such as hard work, entrepreneurship, creativity, generosity, etc, the following statement by Gome holds true:
"A great number of the solutions to the problems facing the US health care system lie outside of the country, in working models implemented around the globe by other nations who are somewhat closer to having it right".
It would only be sensible for us to let our common sense prevail, to hold any false pride back, and adopt some versions of those solutions, especially from Canada & parts of Europe, into our system, rather than waste valuable energy in perpetual, emotional arguments that, after a while, lose meaning.
posted by
ash_pradhan
on September 10, 2009 at 4:20 PM
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Re: Re: Re: lindo - Re: No offence taken Gomedome...
I will answer on anything at any time I desire to do so.
I enjoyed how you jumped on the Europe thing in this statement and sidestepped what you chose to. I never said you lived in Europe. You live in Canada. What gome, no comment on "God Given.." ??? I thought you would have written a lecture of book length to this person about how there is no God.
Once again, I simply asked you question then you respond with the juvenile name calling. Is life that miserable?
posted by
RedStatesMan
on September 10, 2009 at 12:40 PM
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Re: Re: lindo - Re: No offence taken Gomedome...
I don't live in Europe you simpering pinhead, how could I agree or not agree? . . . don't bother answering, it will be just another one of your feeble minded attempts to derail a discussion where your only contributions have been drivel and seething hatred for that which is beyond your limited comprehension.
posted by
gomedome
on September 10, 2009 at 11:05 AM
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Re: lindo - Re: No offence taken Gomedome...
So you agree with Lindo's comment here:
"Why should I when it is my God given right all over the European Union?"
Again, so you are agreeing with Lindo's statement?
posted by
RedStatesMan
on September 10, 2009 at 9:34 AM
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lindo - Re: No offence taken Gomedome...
Compassion is the key word here in that in a decent society, it should be at the root of a collective social will to provide health care for all citizens. It is also a sentiment remarkably absent in the callous arguments put forth by many of the health care reform detractors. The USA is not the envy of the modern world when it comes to providing health care for its citizens, no other nations are intent on emulating the same glaring mistakes that the USA has made in this area.
Utilizing a for profit, capitalist infrastructure to provide public health care is a system that can never possibly work adequately. It also insures that a monetary value is placed on human life. (don't try to tell me that people don't die in the USA because they cannot afford a doctor, I know of real life examples) Yet this is ultimately what some of these hillbillies are defending . . the right to have inadequate health care that costs twice as much as it does anywhere else in the world.
All I can say to them is: Keep fighting the good fight you morons.
posted by
gomedome
on September 10, 2009 at 7:08 AM
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No offence taken Gomedome...
I gave birth to my son in a public hospital at the UK and i can assure you that we received first class treatment and care, one that would have cost me an arm and a leg elsewhere. But the best part of all was knowing that the system provided for us, it was designed to look after our needs, even when we didn't know we had one. A midwife came to my house every other day to check on me and the baby, she made me change his diapers as she watched and corrected the mistakes I made. They ran tests I did not know existed. The midwife drove me in her own car to weekly prenatal classes. She was under no obligation to do that but she did. It comes down to one word "compassion". As much as our dear friend likes to think that the whole world is envious of the USA I would never seek an education or health care there. Why should I when it is my God given right all over the European Union?
posted by
lindo
on September 10, 2009 at 12:44 AM
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lindo - I guess the "foreign jackasses" remark refers to you and I
The previous commenter, as per usual, seems more than a little confused. There is no definitive health care bill as of yet, this is true but it makes one wonder where people like this are deriving all of the negative and cynical scenarios they blather on about from?
The funny part of this debate is that it hardly ever addresses the realities. Nor do the people that are vehemently opposed to it ever make an effort to educate themselves on the issue. I happen to live in a country that offers universal health care to its citizens, remarkably not one person on this site of American descent has once ever asked me about our system, how it works, its failing points, or how some of its features could be applied to their country. There are citizens of other countries with universal health care here as well, to my knowledge not one of them has ever been asked about their country's health care systems either. At least not by one of these frothing pinheads. Ask any of these people about any of the health care systems in the world that actually serve their citizens far better than the US system does at greatly lower costs and they become mutes.
All they can offer in rebuttal is their nonsensical blathering goop (as witnessed by the previous comment). Some of them aren't even smart enough to know to what extent they rallying against their own self interest.
A great number of the solutions to the problems facing the US health care system lie outside of the country, in working models implemented around the globe by other nations who are somewhat closer to having it right. ....make that light years closer.
posted by
gomedome
on September 9, 2009 at 11:05 PM
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LOL! Listen To The Liberal Drivel!
I have yet to hear any of you explain what is in the healthcare bill. Not one of you! Know why? If your worthless liberal leader either chooses not to tell anyone what is in his own plan or he can not tell you what is in his own plan then how in the hell can you? He can not even tell you what is in it! He can just say "pass it now" or "pass it by Friday". Damn you people, I would not even agree with Ronald Reagan if he came on TV every week demanding something be passed by Friday as in the case of the most worthless piece of excrement ever produced by the name of hussien obama!
I just love when I hear about Americans being in the Dark Ages yet where do all the leaders and citizens from foreign nations come for medical help? The U.S., that's where. The truth of the matter is that you hate this nation. You have always been jealous of this nation and you have always hated it. Everyone who supports obama wants a handout. Those who support him on everything from healthcare to taxes can not handle any responsibility, they can not pull themselves up from the bootstraps because they are worthless. Don't tell me about medical bills. I have an 11 year old handicap daughter who I be damned if some worthless jackass like obama is going decide her fate. I will fight this until I die under any means necessary. The damn stupid liberals will be defeated because they are wrong! The hell with liberals, the democrat party, obama and any foreign jackasses!
posted by
RedStatesMan
on September 9, 2009 at 8:37 PM
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How come we r still having this discussion in the 21 century
This sounds like the arguments of the Dark Ages especially that other countries in Europe and elsewhere have free health care for all their citizens. I hope that common sense prevails and people understand that no man is an island -especially when it comes to medical care.
posted by
lindo
on September 9, 2009 at 9:04 AM
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Re: benzinha - I don't know if "silly" is the right word
I know, gomedome, I use the word 'silly' because, truly, words fail me in the present situation in America. You covered it and every smart and humane person knows, that the public option is the only way to care for citizenry equitably.
I know, the radical silly talking heads on tv and radio ARE like parodies of idiots, BUT, they are real and idiots listen to them. I pity the people who only function on half a brain, but can do nothing for them, but to try to help to protect them from themselves and their 'silly' votes and bills and politics.
Yes, you have lovely, unchemicaled waters and we need them to irrigate Southern California and the western side, deep desert side, of Arizona. Growing tropical fruits in Death Valley in the future agri planning, I'm sure.
Thanks for still liking Americans............
posted by
benzinha
on September 8, 2009 at 10:06 PM
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benzinha - I don't know if "silly" is the right word
There is however, definitely a collective blind spot. One that remarkably has so many people rallying against their own self interest. Free enterprize which is one of the cornerstones of the American self identity, fails miserably when applied and allowed to self regulate in the wrong endeavors. There is no worse application of the free enterprize (capitalist) system than to use it as a means of providing public healthcare.
Universal health care must be viewed as a necessary expense for any society that wants to call itself progressive. It is an area where the application of business principles is only utilized as a means of cost savings and building in efficiencies. To profit from the health and well being and to callously dismiss the plight of so many millions of fellow citizens should be repugnant to a society comprised of decent people but somehow it is not. There are far too many ill informed alarmists that somehow think they are defending a system that is worth maintaining.
We don't get Rush Limbaugh up here in Canada but I have listened to him once. I seriously thought he was doing a parody, making fun of the stereotypical right wing. Imagine my surprise when I realized that not only is he serious but that many people take him seriously. I thought he was a comedian doing a skit.
We actually expect the USA to eventually invade Canada but it will take a few years for the reasons to materialize. It will be the future war for fresh water, we have it, the USA is running out of it.
posted by
gomedome
on September 8, 2009 at 8:41 AM
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Re: Re: The debate has made me sick. Oops I made a pun. I'm not laughing.
gome, they throw around words like 'refusing to insure illegals' and use that as thier main objection, as though the full 30 million uninsured , me included, are all illegally here in this nation. They don't want to hand those people a free aspirin for their feverish infant, and wouldn't, either, if that infant was their next door neighbor.
We have turned into, very possibly, the silliest nation on the face of the earth. I could be wrong, but I doubt it and I'm just going on the publically visible evidence of this belief of mine.
Be worried. We will never invade and take over Mexico, as it is full of Mexicans, but y'all pretty white people up north, now, you are worth annexing.
posted by
benzinha
on September 8, 2009 at 12:53 AM
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Re: Re: The debate has made me sick. Oops I made a pun. I'm not laughing.
Self interest is one thing, but outright silly lies is quite another. I forced myself to listen to Limbaugh for three days in a row and I want to suggest to that preacher who is praying for Obama's death, that he add Rush's name to that same prayer, for me and for America. But, I'm prejudiced by reality and an open mind. Well, unless we're talking about pundits. I am not open minded about their silly power to misinform 'less than rational' or easily persuaded and sheep like radio owners.
posted by
benzinha
on September 8, 2009 at 12:48 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Pathetic!
gomedome, hehehehehehhhhhh, I know, I know. It is why I didn't answer his silliness as there is nothing to say.
I do wish that Obama were more like Reagan in his contact with Congressional people. Reagan made lists of who to call and called everyone on his lists every day, getting them behind anything that he wanted done, Democrats included and it worked. Obama could take a lesson.....
He holds the reins too loosely, I think. Like giving a toddler eight choices of ice cream, rather than just handing them a cone and being done with it.
Thanks for reading old man, miss you.
posted by
benzinha
on September 8, 2009 at 12:44 AM
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Re: The debate has made me sick. Oops I made a pun. I'm not laughing.
majroj - The reality exists that a number of countries manage to provide universal health care to their citizens. Many of these countries do it with a much smaller GDP than the USA and also somehow manage to maintain a quality of life, that is equal to or exceeds that of the USA.
The term "pre-existing condition" is only relevant to life insurance in my country, other than that it is a foreign term, health care is based on need and nothing more. How countries manage to provide universal health care is very simple in terms of the framework, profit is removed from the equation. Hospitals are not run for profit, who is entitled to health care is not determined by the ability to pay. Effectively 2 profit centers are removed from universal health care. The providers themselves and the insurers. The reason why Americans pay twice as much for their health care when compared to all other industrialized countries really is as simple as that.
Admittedly, with a powerful lobby wanting to maintain that profit, changing the system is very difficult but not impossible. I cannot imagine going to bed at night worrying about being financially ruined by declining health or worse; seeing someone die because of an inability to pay. These are concerns that are also foreign to me. The part that bothers me the most about the debate is the utter callousness of some of the detractors. Every last one of them you can bet has health insurance themselves, it is also safe to say that very few of them have any idea how universal health care actually works.
I have to ask what they think they are defending in a system that by virtue of being based on an individual's ability to pay, places a monetary value on human life?
posted by
gomedome
on September 8, 2009 at 12:05 AM
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Re: The debate has made me sick. Oops I made a pun. I'm not laughing.
PS: this falls into the same category as single and non-childbearing people voting down schools and child protective legislations because, as they gleefully and articulately say, it takes away from their personal concerns, such as legalizing gambling, raising the speed limit and repealing blue laws.
posted by
majroj
on September 7, 2009 at 11:48 PM
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The debate has made me sick. Oops I made a pun. I'm not laughing.
The misinformation which has been spread against universal health care makes me furious, sad and discouraged.
I was a case manager for a county's medically indigent citizens. The biggest reason for delay was not due to government delays and snafus, it was lack of willing participating providers. The providers could not get reimbursement at a high enough rate and receive it fast and easily enough, so they didn't actually provide care for many patients at all; they signed up so that they would stand some chance of any reimbursement for the emergency cases they were forced by chance to take on, or their patients who lost their insurance. The for-pay insurance providers dropped their customers as fast as they could once they were unable to pay premiums, or disapprove payments then kick them out for alleged preextant conditions.
In America, when you become poor or ill you become less-noticed. When you do both you become invisible and silent. Try as hard as you can to imagine goling to bed tonight knowing your spouse, your parent, your kid or sibling or even you will become sick, experience pain and disability, and die because you lost your earning capacity due to the selfsame medical condition, or your employer couldn't or didn't offer medical insurance (or it was minimalist craptrap), or you are too young or under educated to earn enough money to self-insure.
There is no reason rich people can't purchase their own luxury health insurance once a single payer program is in place.
The insurers understandably want to use as large a pool of paying, supporting (non-sick) clients as they can; if taxpayers are afforded health care through their tax dollars, that will be curtailed. So will the multi-million dolar salaries and publicity/lobbying funds they wield.
PS: those medical providers who see indigent patients ought to get big fat tax breaks themselves.
posted by
majroj
on September 7, 2009 at 11:42 PM
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Re: Re: Pathetic!
benzinha - it is remarkable how a grown man can pick up drivel derived from propaganda and run with it. Considering that currently there are only a handful of loosely constructed proposals being debated and no definitive health care bill has yet to be written, just what the hell is the previous commenter talking about? It's like a big moronic fart coming from his mouth in the place of words, just a foul smelling and just as useful in terms of what it adds to the debate.
In all of the industrialized nations that manage to provide universal health care to their citizens, not one of these nations euthenizes its elderly citizens. So where does that notion come from other than the hysterics of the ill informed? As a matter of fact, life expectancy is longer in all of these countries when compared to the USA. There are other considerations concerning universal health care as well.
Living in the region of the Detroit to Toronto automotive corridor, a disproportionate number of cars are built in Canada for the US market and do you know what one of the primary reasons for this is? It is so much cheaper to provide a full range of employee health and dental benefits in a country that picks up a great deal of the tab. Then there is the fact that 100% of all Canadians have full health care at a cost that is per capita less than half of what the US system is paying per person for approximately 85% coverage.
All you can do with authors of comments such as the previous one is to tell them to shut their slobbering pie holes until they can use at least some facts in their "pathetic" arguments.
posted by
gomedome
on September 7, 2009 at 8:19 PM
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Re: Pathetic!
You RedStatesMan radicalize all statements made by anyone that you perceive to not jump on your misinformed and silly old bandwagon. Go 'head, be radicalized and help to create chaos, rather than harmony within my beloved nation. Your choice.
posted by
benzinha
on September 7, 2009 at 12:35 AM
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Thanks Xeno
posted by
benzinha
on September 7, 2009 at 12:32 AM
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Pathetic!
Under your boy obama's healthcare, by the time you get a chance to see a doctor about a kidney transplant, you will be dead. Do not worry though, you will not have to worry about a kideny transplant because if indeed you are a grandman obama's panel has already decided you ARE NOT WORTHY of pumping obama's government money into to fixing your ass! GET IT? What am I talking about? You never have got it nor will you ever. Whether you are poor or middle class or rich your time is coming. You wish to sacrifice your children's and grandchildren's future in being controlled by sociailism/communism in order to give you a few more years. Like I said. under this bastard's plan you will suffer longer than you would now and then you will complaining about him. WAKE UP!
posted by
RedStatesMan
on September 6, 2009 at 7:37 PM
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right on grama!
posted by
Xeno-x
on September 6, 2009 at 7:21 PM
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