Go to Religion in the Modern World
- Add a comment
- Go to Turnaround is fair play- isn't it?
Re: onwingsoflove - There is a distinct pattern in your responses to questions
OWOL, this is an accurate, well-informed statement by Gome. Steph, I know you are a good-hearted person, so are my friends RSM, Bible Thumper, and other Christians. I do sincerely hope that you all will take the time to read & reflect upon some of dear Bhaskar's educational posts / comments, and some of Gome's rational posts / comments, to expand your understanding of today's world that includes many like them and myself. I unconditionally love you all, and I hope that you all will do the same..if there is only one lesson to learn in life, this is the one. Blessings to all,
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 19, 2009 at 8:05 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Re: Ash Pradhan/Gomedome, AP, you've given us a glimpse of your strength
Thanks Bhaskar & Gome! I must admit that I got more than a little ticked off at the views expressed despite some of the scholarly & educational posts that dear Bhaskar has been posting, and the well-informed rational arguments that Gome has been presenting. "Bridging cultures / nations" has been one of my cherished activities most of my life, never thought poetry would open up additional avenues for that. Thank you both for your valuable contributions.
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 17, 2009 at 8:29 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: ash_pradhan - I had to delete one of your comments
Thanks Gome, I guess verbally I got a little carried away for obvious reasons.
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 17, 2009 at 8:15 PM
| link to this | reply
onwingsoflove - There is a distinct pattern in your responses to questions
You either ignore, evade, or offer something irrelevant. This is the response you gave to me for some of the points I brought up earlier.
"No gome, its not "where they were born" thats the problem (there are christians eveverywhere) the problem is whether or not they are born again or not. And Jesus is the ONLY ONE who died for sins. Not some graven image that cant speak or hear."
Where (geographically) and when (historically) a person is born is by far the greatest single determinant of what that person will believe. There is no argument to refute this statement, it is as true as saying that fire is hot.
In your case just like everyone else, you believe what you believe because of where and when you were born. You were born into a culture where the predominant religion is Christianity and you were born after 1750CE, or you could not possibly believe that being born again is an important aspect of salvation. (this belief did not exist prior to that time period in all of Christianity)
How can a God of infinite love make the one true path to salvation so historically obscure, difficult and arbitrary, that the vast majority of mankind will never even have a chance at it?
. . . and then still be referred to as a God of infinite love?
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 11:11 AM
| link to this | reply
calia14 - I didn't see this particular post as an attempt to battle
intolerance but . . . .
If that is in some small way the result, hey that's a good thing.
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 10:47 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Wow! So Gome, is your blog number one again, or what?
strat - thanx for stopping in
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 10:43 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Ash Pradhan/Gomedome, AP, you've given us a glimpse of your strength
Bhaskar.ing - Right on. There certainly are a great number of parallels to be drawn between the brainwashing techniques of segments of Islam and what we witness here from some contributors. It is a fair argument to say that the methods of indoctrination, social pressure and conditioning are the foundation of the ability of such irrational constructs to survive in the modern era. The bellowing proclamations of one's faith are nothing more than the manifestation of the success of these techniques.
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 10:41 AM
| link to this | reply
texture - thanx again for stopping in
In response to one of your comments; the use of the word "him" as in referring to God as masculine is as you say a result of social conditioning. But even in that little foible of how we have all been conditioned I see an inconsistency.
The God of all long existing monotheistic religious beliefs is invariably an extrapolation of a paternalistic tribal chieftain image. All doctrine of all of the major religions, supposedly the word of God, or at the very least inspired by God, is authored by men. I have a problem with this. It isn't as if 50% of our species had nothing to say, or could not have contributed a different and useful perspective to the scriptures, they surely could have.
Where this is relevant to the default masculine references to God, is in that all societies of ancient times barring very few exceptions were paternalistic. Male dominated to the extent that still to this day, it permeates our social conditioning.
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 10:32 AM
| link to this | reply
ash_pradhan - I had to delete one of your comments
Because it was a clear breach of the site user conduct policy. I am confident that you did not mean to do that and I agree completely with just about everything you said in that comment.
An outline of the problem with that particular comment: There were clear and specific references to another blogger in the title and in the body of the comment. The comment then went on to denigrate said blogger with terms such as "level of ignorance" and "idiotic" etc. This type of comment forces site administrators to act if it generates a complaint and rightfully so.
The only part of your comment that I take minor issue with, I will address in a post a little later on.
posted by
gomedome
on May 16, 2009 at 10:17 AM
| link to this | reply
It's great to see people of so many different faiths and viewpoints all here to battle intolerance, rather than one another! Although I suppose it is inevitable to see that there is still some closed-minded intolerance left in the world, represented here by just one blogger. Kudos, Gomedome, for writing such a blog!
posted by
calia14
on May 16, 2009 at 3:29 AM
| link to this | reply
Wow! So Gome, is your blog number one again, or what?
posted by
strat
on May 15, 2009 at 10:28 PM
| link to this | reply
Ash Pradhan/Gomedome, AP, you've given us a glimpse of your strength
Having read all the comments in here, it's no wonder why this blog draws such attenion and attraction that a believer's blog often doesn't; mostly, they are like old-world pins stuck at a gramophone record - nothing new or exciting, except crying hoarse "I believe, I believe", so painfully raucous to the ears. It's like repeating a mantra "I am a man, I am a man". If you really are, then why this stupid chanting? That only raises doubts whether one is not a man!! It only proves that faithful doubts are better than doubtful faiths - the essential difference between atheists and theists. Some believers are first brain-washed as they do in madrasas in Islam, and then given a capsule "Take this holy pill just so that your brains never open", and it remains encapsulated in their brains all their lives. This is nothing short of fanaticism. Christianity was not there in an earlier civilization say, during the times of Harappan or the Sumerian cultures, but the Bible would argue that the world came into existence some 4000 odd years BC, and the believers would gulp the nonsense as true, just as I am seeing here in one such ... enjoyable, though and I'm grinning.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on May 15, 2009 at 10:22 PM
| link to this | reply
BibleThumper - Re: Gome, You are correct....
BibleThumper, I'm pleased that rational "believers" like yourself are beginning to see the sense that many of Gome's intellectual arguments are making. Perhaps you might be able to put some sense in the heads of those irrational "believers".
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 15, 2009 at 7:08 PM
| link to this | reply
and i use the word "him" only because of my upbringing. Forgive me, for I know it is not a big enough word. :)
posted by
texture
on May 15, 2009 at 5:32 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Re: onwingsoflove - that notion is simply ludicrous
I am going to ask this. Were your parents Christians onwingsoflove? Discounting missionaries, crusades and holy wars, it is mostly a product of what you are exposed to. I do understand, but even as a child I didn't feel this was right. It makes no sense. God is limitless. i sound like a broken record, but i first knew him through my parents eyes, then I found him in other eyes. I know what to look for and It can be called many things.
posted by
texture
on May 15, 2009 at 5:31 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: onwingsoflove - that notion is simply ludicrous
Perfect.
posted by
texture
on May 15, 2009 at 5:25 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Re: onwingsoflove - that notion is simply ludicrous
can you answer my questions please in my previous comment?
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 15, 2009 at 12:24 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: onwingsoflove - that notion is simply ludicrous
No gome, its not "where they were born" thats the problem (there are christians eveverywhere) the problem is whether or not they are born again or not. And Jesus is the ONLY ONE who died for sins. Not some graven image that cant speak or hear.
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 15, 2009 at 11:03 AM
| link to this | reply
re: onwingsoflove
Whenever someone proclaims THE ONE TRUE GOD, others must ask, "How did that person arrive at such a conclusion?"
How do you know that your god is indeed THE ONE TRUE GOD, and that others' god is not?
When 1.5 billion people get ehir god from the same bible, yet differ so much, we have to ask why.
Your god, wings, is taken from the same Bible as that of Catholics, Lutherans, all Christian-labeled sects. What makes you think that your god is the only one as compared to the god of the Catholics, Lutherans, etc.? What makes theirs wrong? What is right with your interpretation of the Bible and wrong with theirs?
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 15, 2009 at 11:03 AM
| link to this | reply
onwingsoflove - that notion is simply ludicrous
It doesn't even pass the laugh test. If you are saying that Islam, or any other religion for that matter, is a false religion worshipping a false God, the God you believe in must now be defined as merciless and uncaring, negative traits that are not worthy of worship. This doesn't even begin to address the ridiculousness in the percentage of humanity that you so flippantly condemn to eternal suffering with a few words from an old book.
I'm sorry but I reconciled this drivel decades ago by completely discarding it. I have no interest in dialogue which is nothing more than enduring someone's proclamation of superiority. To me there is no idea more absurd; than someone saying that their beliefs are right, while everyone else on the planet is wrong. Then insisting that their God of infinite love will condemn the vast majority of humanity to eternal suffering, simply because of when and where they were born?
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 10:27 AM
| link to this | reply
Gome & Talion...
I too completely agree with both of yours' comments below. I might add that, that phenomenon exists world-wide, and the only solution is to step out of one's comfort zone and extend a hand of genuine respect & friendship to a total stranger, especially ones different than one is accustomed to hanging out with. One is then pleasantly surprised, as well as broadened. This business of East is East, West is West, the two shall never meet is pure hogwash invented by self-serving leaders to keep them in power. The truth is, the twain is one...and it's all human!
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 15, 2009 at 9:23 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: onwingsoflove - as for Osama Bin Laden;
Yes Sir, that is exactly what I am saying. In fact the number world wide is probably far more than 1.2 billion. The Bible says that "Few there be that find it."
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 15, 2009 at 9:14 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Re: Gome, in your last para you summarized pretty well...
Gome, in your comment to dear Bhaskar below, the conditioning you correctly observe is much more than subtle in many cases, even among so-called educated folks. It amazes me how some of the basic wisdom shown by even kids in India is lacking in some of the so-called grown-ups here. By the same token, that same conditioning prevents many folks here from opening their hearts & minds to others, thus not being able to display the warmth that exists within many. This barrier to communication I talk about is far more than religious...it is also cultural, historical, besides obviously being geographical. Hopefully, patient, intellectual, reasoned, respectful dialogue between diverse people now will help bridge that gap for our children...to me, that's a far more worthy goal to strive for than to say / believe that total extinction of the species is the only answer.
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 15, 2009 at 8:41 AM
| link to this | reply
onwingsoflove - as for Osama Bin Laden;
"he believes in "a god" not THE GOD."
That is what I thought you were implying in your first comment. "THE GOD" which we can reasonably assume is the post protestant reformation version of God that you believe exists, somehow trumps his version of God. Ignoring for a minute that the man we are speaking of is an extremist pious pinhead, in other words you are saying that 1.2 billion people on this planet are worshipping a false God?
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 8:21 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: onwingsoflove - I never said anything close to the following
Of course he's not right, he believes in "a god" not THE GOD.
That snake looked like a baby anaconda-I would have ran as fast as I could in the other direction. More power to ya!
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 15, 2009 at 8:02 AM
| link to this | reply
pOPpy_ - there are definately a lot fewer questions to answer if one defers
all inquiries to religious constructs.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:49 AM
| link to this | reply
Bhaskar.ing - thank you
One of the foibles of those born and raised in North America is that they are subtly conditioned to discount all other world religions. To pick just 3 well known religious figureheads as examples; the Pope, the Dali Lama and Ayatollah Khomeini, we see 3 decidedly different sets of beliefs amongst 3 men completely dedicated to their respective faiths. How could one of these men possibly be right in their beliefs and the others be wrong? What criteria could there possibly be that would make all 3 of them right or conversely wrong?
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:46 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Gome, in your last para you summarized pretty well...
ash_pradhan - thanx for stopping in. I always look forward to intelligent discourse and despite a few low points along the way, it is possible on this site.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:35 AM
| link to this | reply
Justi - thank you and thanx for stopping in
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:33 AM
| link to this | reply
texture - you hit on a good point there
A number of the prevailing attitudes held by religious groups today can be likened to high altitude carpet bombing. With a sea of shiny happy faces in the congregation obscuring the field of vision, they never see the real outcome of the social norms they establish.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:32 AM
| link to this | reply
Talion_ - I completely agree
One thing that is evident from some of the things we read on this site time and time again, is that the incredibly narrow views of some of the authors is a direct result of limited life experience and exposure to other cultures. It seems as if some folks never expand their world view beyond their little isolated enclaves. Instead being quite content to simply extrapolate from misconception and stereotypes to form their opinions of others not like them.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:25 AM
| link to this | reply
BibleThumper - changing anyone's beliefs is probably the last thing I would
ever attempt to do.
My motivations for writing a blog such as this have a lot more to do with the indignation one feels from witnessing and enduring the negative byproducts of the predominant religions in our societies. The anti science agendas, or the villification of groups and individuals as examples, are trends that will never change without planting seeds of thought amongst the proponents of these things.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 7:14 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: Gomedome,
(one's
own palate, that is)
posted by
myrrhage_
on May 15, 2009 at 7:06 AM
| link to this | reply
Gomedome,
Hear! Hear!
I like to think of God as a great big onion. Many-layered, pungent, grows underground in secret (all we see is the pretty green shoots), and no matter how you slice it, it makes your eyes water. If you can stomach the bite, you're ready to be a "true believer", which like you said is subjective to say the least.
If you want the easy way out... Well, then you become a Bible banger. It's easier on the palate that way.
posted by
myrrhage_
on May 15, 2009 at 7:04 AM
| link to this | reply
onwingsoflove - I never said anything close to the following
"You are right about one thing though, people aren't the ones who are right...God is."
And I cannot for the life of me figure out how anyone can reconcile this statement: "And the ones who believe in Him, are the ones doing right" . . . this elevates belief alone above all other considerations in our lives, as well as being blatantly false. Osama Bin Laden as an example; is a devout believer and thinks he knows what his version of God wants, would you say that he is doing right?
The snake was a Northern Water Snake, about 800 miles further north at the time than they were thought to range. In the picture it appears to have a rattle but that is actually molt, the only reason I was able to walk up to it and pick it up. They are non venomous.
posted by
gomedome
on May 15, 2009 at 6:32 AM
| link to this | reply
Gomedome
The last line in summation is spot on.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on May 15, 2009 at 1:03 AM
| link to this | reply
Gome, in your last para you summarized pretty well...
what I've been saying all along. In the future, as the occasion arises, I shall look forward to some more rational, intelligent dialogue with you that could hopefully be beneficial to both of us as well as to several others. Thanks for sticking around here with patience & purpose, I respect that.
posted by
ash_pradhan
on May 14, 2009 at 6:25 PM
| link to this | reply
You are a good writer. I just popped in to see what was going on over here. Have a good day.
posted by
Justi
on May 14, 2009 at 5:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: gomedome
I like this take. Intellectual tolerance vs real time, in your face, practice what you preach. It is hard to hate, when you are looking in someones eyes.
posted by
texture
on May 14, 2009 at 4:14 PM
| link to this | reply
gomedome
Whenever I encounter an individual with narrowly defined views of groups of people (based on race, sexual orientation, religious beliefs, etc.), it leads me to believe he/she never had a true friend from any of those groups. Only from close contact with others on even footing, only when the nefarious "they" and "them" becomes the comfortable "us" and "we," can the narrowly defined viewpoints expand and grow. We can read a library's worth of books, scour the far reaches of the internet, watch hours upon hours of television, but nothing beats face-to-face life experiences.
posted by
Talion_
on May 14, 2009 at 3:18 PM
| link to this | reply
Gome, You are correct....
turnabout is fair play. I wish you had another blog that I could read and comment on that would be insightful and not inciteful. I found you to be an intelligent man, firm in your beliefs, and bold as a lion. It would be cool to meet on a more-even playing field so-to-speak. I am not going to change you to my way of believing about God and you will never convince me that there is no God. Okay. We each have a right to believe as we choose. The God I serve will never force himself upon anyone and His demanor is not abrasive or offensive. That being said, I will read your blog but will not seek to offend you or others in any way. I will do my best to live according to the good book, "as you would that men should do unto you, do also unto them." Have a good evening!
posted by
Texas_Gem
on May 14, 2009 at 2:55 PM
| link to this | reply
Re: Re: onwingsoflove - yes I would agree and of course that would be my beliefs
Hey gome, as a side note and off the subject entirely, I just saw your pic. on ariala's photo page. You look nothing like what I imagined you to. What kind of snake was that?
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 14, 2009 at 11:37 AM
| link to this | reply
Re: onwingsoflove - yes I would agree and of course that would be my beliefs
Gome, I wasn't trying to imply anything. You are right about one thing though, people aren't the ones who are right...God is. And the ones who believe in Him, are the ones doing right.And I'm not wrong in my beliefs. Although of course, I disagree that you think your beliefs are right, as Im sure you also think my beliefs are wrong, infact Im positive you think that about me, you kind of said it.
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 14, 2009 at 11:25 AM
| link to this | reply
onwingsoflove - yes I would agree and of course that would be my beliefs
How does it feel to be totally wrong in your beliefs?
Of course I do not feel that way, but I am not sure whether or not if that was what you were implying? There is only one possible conclusion that can be arrived at: the beliefs themselves are merely culturally specific human constructs, criteria for salvation must be universal and cannot be conditional on any human interpretations. In other words no one is right.
posted by
gomedome
on May 14, 2009 at 11:16 AM
| link to this | reply
Yes gomedome, there are MANY beliefs (I actually just posted a blog on that right before you posted yours). The problem with "many beliefs" is that only one is right, wouldn't you agree?
posted by
onwingsoflove
on May 14, 2009 at 11:07 AM
| link to this | reply