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Re: address the grievances of the Palestinians
gapcohen - are you really attempting to compare an insignificant civil disturbance to the perpetual conflict in the middle east? What fight do you think is coming to Canada? We can and probably will be subject to some form of terrorist action but what do you think that has to do with Hamas? Especially after you emphasize their charter as being anti-Israel? Does it say anything about Canada in that charter? When it does let me know.
The part you do not seem to grasp is that you can sell your emotional plea for support to pro-Israel Americans but won't have much luck selling it to people who do not harbor those sentiments. They are the ones that have historically supported a strategic ally in the region, a great portion of the rest of the world has a neutral perspective towards these types of conflicts. Increasingly, the world community is developing a jaded or desensitized viewpoint towards that region for two reasons. We have our own problems and there are more significant conflicts and human tragedy going on in the world.
posted by
gomedome
on January 6, 2009 at 7:01 AM
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address the grievances of the Palestinians
Their grievance is, in a nutshell (according to Hamas) that they don't want the State of Israel to exist at all. Check their Charter. I can't believe that little ol liberal me is agreeing with RedStateMan (Blogit makes for strange bedfellows!), but being isolationist won't help you when the fight comes to you. Though generally peaceful, Canada is not an oasis; just this past summer, weren't there riots in Montreal? I suppose the rioters were justified, given that the cops had killed one of their own. I guess the police should have just let the rioters have their "say" looting and destroying property without interfering because kids and gangs have been doing this for ages and they won't stop just because authorities intervene. Sometimes, there are moral issues that don't boil down to religion; a great majority of Israelis have never seen the inside of a synagogue.
posted by
gapcohen
on January 5, 2009 at 1:29 PM
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Re: It might not go on forever if the U.S. acts responsibly.
Xeno-x - the USA is being played. It has never been so obvious as it is during this conflict. The timing prior to the US presidential swearing in and Hamas' press releases directed at the USA. Somehow, the evil USA and of course Israel, are being depicted as the perpetrators while the residents of the Gaza strip are being the portrayed as the victims. When does the world stop buying into this stuff? Hamas picked a fight and they as well as the residents of the Gaza strip are suffering the consequences. How is this anyone's fault but those who picked the fight?
It's time to stop playing this game. Once the bullets stop flying, address the grievances of the Palestinians, establish a Palistinian state and stop being suckers for this type of PR.
posted by
gomedome
on January 5, 2009 at 10:16 AM
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It might not go on forever if the U.S. acts responsibly.
and become rather neutral on this issue.
Going in and attempting to broker a peace, like Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton did. Asking both parties to cease any activity that harms the other, providing basic services that help the Palestinians in Gaza, and demanding that both sides sit down at the bargaining table to work out the differences.
Here's a light overview of the Arab side: Jews displaced Arabs in Palestine, starting in the mid-1800's -- the nation of Israel was formed apparently without much input from the Arabs living there -- Jewish settlers have been taking away Arab property in the West Bank, the Wall that Israel is constructing, stated to be in their own defense, is hampering movement of Palestinians and also taking a good portion of their land. Other issues, stemming from attempts by Israel to protect its citizens, such as restricting the flow of Palestinians to and from Israel, and allowing fewer Palestinians to enter for work, and the state of existence in Gaze, etc., are points of contention to Palestinians.
Israel wants to protect itself. The continued and constant terrorism: suicide bombings, rocket attacks, a history of terrorism and violence, all are valid reasons for certain Israeli actions.
If terrorist groups would suspend their violent activities, I would think more people would be willing to listen to their points of contention.
If Israel were to remove settlers at a greater pace and suspend construction of the Wall, this would remove at least these points of contention. Others could follow.
A big part of the problem is religion -- not Mohammedanism against Judaism or Christianity, but the Bible. Promises made to Abraham that his children would inherit the land (Arabs are Abraham's children, descended from Ishmael) -- and the so-called prophecies about the Second Coming of Christ, as I have noted below.
These two things fuel a flawed sequence of activities that only serve to fuel the violence rather than quell it.
Maybe you are right -- peace there just might be impossible. Nobody wants to back down. Everybody thinks they are right. That's the biggest problem -- if people would only admit that they might be wrong and that others have valid concerns . . . that's where peace is impossible .. nobody will.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 5, 2009 at 7:05 AM
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Judaism and Mohammedanism have not been at odds with each other
historically.
And neither have Moslem rulers hated Christianity historically.
The Church of the Holy Sepulcher and the Church of the Nativity both testify to the latter.
In Moorish Spain, Jews were respected members of the community,held high positions (then came Christian Ferdinand and Isabella and the Spanish Inquisition began).
Numerous Jewish settlements existed in Palestine in the early 19th Century. Both Jews and Christians were highly tolerated in Moslem lands.
The issues are not religion, but 1. Control of Arab lands by European powers 2. U.S. exploitation of the Middle East and support of oppressive rulers, such as the Shah of Iran, who possibly could rank right up there with Saddam Hussein in atrocities committed -- but he was our ally.
and 3. Zionist goals. Arabs have no problem with the Jewish religion; however, the bitterness seems to arise from displacement of Palestinian Arabs by Zionists, starting about the mid-1800's.
It is Arab response that exacerbates the problem, the violent terrorism of Hamas and PLO and Hezbollah. We have to remember that Egypt, Jordan and Syria fought at least three times to eliminate Israel as a nation. When they failed, terrorist groups took over.
This is a simplistic description that just scratches the surface, but it is much more accurate than what Christians like RedStatesMan seem to believe and disseminate.
This latter is from a position, as I've said before, that the Second Coming will not occur until there is "abomination of desolation in the holy place", and the "holy place" must be a new temple sitting where the previous two temples sat. This belief and the actions of certain Christians supporting Israel because of this belief helps to exacerbate the violence.
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 5, 2009 at 6:46 AM
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RedStatesMan - remarkably, I agree with most of what you are saying
Except for one glaring reality; terrorism will never be defeated. It can only be marginalized and to some degree guarded against. Parallels drawn to peaceful secular democracies such as Canada are irrelevant, it is nothing more than an emotional plea that works with those sympathetic to Israel but is meaningless to those who do not harbor those sympathies. To me this conflict is nothing more than a war on the other side of the planet between combatants that have exhausted all of the good will and concern they can reasonably expect.
The point is that everything that is transpiring now has happened countless times in the past and it seems will never end. Part of the equation is as I have mentioned; that groups such as Hamas play the international sympathy card as they attempt to stoke the fires of Arab nation rage. Is this going to go on forever? Likely, if it is viewed in the same light as it has always been and the same things are done yet again. Isolating the warring parties may be the only answer.
posted by
gomedome
on January 4, 2009 at 9:08 PM
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Re: RedStatesMan - the bible only answers these things if you allow wishful
Ok, let me dilute it so that it is not the whole picture but one that everyone can understand. You have terrorist throughout all of the middle east and at this moment you have Hamas and Palestine taking their turn. Then you have the terrorist making statements that they value death as much as we value life. Ok, so then you do not support anyone in that region at all, you just play like an isolationist. What if this continues all over the world, which it would, if Israel was defeated. Eventually it would circle Canada and the U.S.. I am certain that most of the atheist, not to mention everyone else, would not want to be forced to practice their form of religion. You say you owe Israel nothing but yet you do not see the whole picture. I guess if this was occurring to Canada then the U.S. should just let Hamas bomb away at Quebec, Toronto, Montreal, etc. right? Of course not! Take the holy book out of it. Look at what is happening. It does not take an intelligent person to know that terrorism must be defeated!
posted by
RedStatesMan
on January 4, 2009 at 8:30 PM
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RedStatesMan - the bible only answers these things if you allow wishful
thinking to overcome common sense.
Seriously man, what utter drivel. The combatants are Jewish and Muslim with their religions at the very core of the problem. What is written in the Christian holy book of choice is irrelevant to them. When it is considered that this type of conflict has been taking place for centuries in that region; how can someone possibly consider vague references from ancient authors as being anything more than simple observation? Prophecies and other such nonsense have no place in foreign policy but the problem still remains. What do we do this time around?
My vote goes to anyone who simply cuts the middle east adrift and lets them solve their own problems. I owe Israel nothing, they established themselves amongst their enemies and have yet to resolve the grievances of their neighbors. In this attitude the answer may lie. The sympathies of the western world and international community are constantly used as bargaining chips, remove this leverage from the equation. Then without condition establish a Palestinian state with the same fervor and support that Israel was established.
The short of it is that I could give a flying fig about what it says in someone's holy book.
posted by
gomedome
on January 4, 2009 at 2:05 PM
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Re: RedStatesMan - I won't argue your perspective
And thus we have the dilemma. I know that the Bible answers these questions in so many ways. I know that may not be your favorite agreeable subject but it does. Obviously this conflict has been going on forever and it is religious in nature. So, isn't it interesting that in the year of 2009 it is still going on and does this not at least bring it to a mere thought of how this world may very well end one day? We see now certain nations taking sides. What does this tell us?
I will answer your question with a question. What would you do if all who side with Palestine then start to take action? How would this affect Canada and the U.S.? Then it spreads to many nations getting involved then what would you do? We obviously have Hamas and Palestine bombing Israel. Even Obama stated that Israel's security is at risk. So do we let a nation's security continue to be at risk? I do not think so. Of course, I have always been pro-Israel for many reasons.
posted by
RedStatesMan
on January 3, 2009 at 11:22 PM
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Peace from war, from fighting, is an illusive scheme, a mocking dream that haunts the desires for a quixotic milieu. On the whole, human kind has no bent toward the "give". They only strive for the "take".
posted by
TAPS.
on January 3, 2009 at 11:22 PM
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RedStatesMan - I won't argue your perspective
When there are no real answers; to say one opinion is more valid than the next is moot but when you say ". . .help our ally Israel always" . . . help them how? How can it be in the best interest of the USA to help a country that has been and always will be perpetually at war with its neighbors? Especially when any form of help polarizes the Arab world against us?
posted by
gomedome
on January 3, 2009 at 10:59 PM
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I think I am a little crazy definitely dyslexic.
I read your heading as Rock Lobster instead of Lob Rockets. Can you imagine my despair when I found I haven't been invited to dine!
posted by
Kabu
on January 3, 2009 at 10:53 PM
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Understood
All of this is correct but you must remember that the world is smaller than ever now. You must also remember that is we would have taken this approach in WWII then I am sure that Hitler's reign would have lasted much longer. When I read this type of post I can not help but remember the election of 1992. The liberal media pounced on Pat Buchanan with his 'circle the wagons' approach to foreign issues and labeled him an isolationist but yet the liberal media is against wars so which is it?
If Canada was minding its' own business and some other nation started attacking you then would you want help from the U.S.? It would be in the best interest of the U.S. to help defend Canada. I think it is in the best interest of the U.S. to try to defeat any and all terrorist cells (yes I am calling Hamas a terrorist cell because they are and the Palestinians harbor Hamas so...). Yes we should help our ally Israel always!
posted by
RedStatesMan
on January 3, 2009 at 7:22 PM
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Re: everybody stops doing what they're doing -- we have peace
Oh, how nice. This goes without saying but I believe after hundreds of years of saying this you might want to understand that this is everyone's desire but this will not happen.
posted by
RedStatesMan
on January 3, 2009 at 7:11 PM
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everybody stops doing what they're doing -- we have peace
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 3, 2009 at 1:11 PM
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