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Ciel

That's okay, I forgive you. Here is the link http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/Nautikos/575190

And in response to your other question, yes...

posted by Nautikos on October 20, 2008 at 4:53 PM | link to this | reply

Sorry, Naut, I really really did mean WINE and cheese!

posted by Ciel on October 20, 2008 at 9:52 AM | link to this | reply

Naut, poor thing, I am sorry to have interrupted your wind and cheese...

and I humbly appreciate the sacrifice of your quiet Sunday evening upon the altar of self-expression--both mine and yours!

It will take a while to respond properly to your response, and I think I will take it out into the front pages so everyone can enjoy it, or jeer at us, or join in!

I didn't see that post, but will take a look if you can provide a link.

(You are professional at this historian stuff?)

 a pity we have no icon for wine or cheese...

posted by Ciel on October 20, 2008 at 9:51 AM | link to this | reply

Excellent! Consciousness of one's self is good!

posted by Ciel on October 20, 2008 at 9:30 AM | link to this | reply

Dear Ciel,

I just dropped in to see what you were up to, and I find you’re up to no good, lol. As is so often the case, you post a piece that tries to force me out of my American-wine-&-French-camembert-flavoured Sunday evening somnolence. I had a busy day, and I wanted to relax, but you won’t let me.

You raise some very important questions, either directly or by implication, questions, incidentally, which underlie much of today’s public discourse, even when not voiced. (And what follows is meant to respond to both this and the previous post) 

Let me put it in very simple, concrete terms: there is always a gap (some might say a chasm) between ‘theory’ and ‘practice’, in this between the ideals enshrined in the American Constitution, and the way people think and act, the way society operates in fact. Having said that, there are moments and events were the gap is bridged, in our courts, in some of our institutions. (I say ‘our’ since, although a Canadian, I identify with the spirit of the Constitution.)

And if we deplore the lack of convergence between the two, we must remember it is not theory (here the Constitution) that creates practice, but practice creates theory. The Constitution was the ‘distillate’ of a particular way of life and particular way of seeing the world at a particular point in history. Once created, it of course influences and helps shape practice. But there is never a guarantee. (Have you ever looked at the Soviet constitution? A remarkable document...)

Looking at history, America offers the most clear-cut example of a country where the Constitution has in fact helped shaped practice in many far-reaching ways for a long time. But still, as much as we might deplore it, the gap is widening, partly as the result of the fact that the idea of the ‘melting pot’ has lost currency. Never in history (something I know a little about), has a multi-cult society worked in the long run, no matter how fervently some of its members hoped for it...

Still...You say "We cannot be selfish, insular and self-indulgent, we cannot be an ignorant, poorly-educated nation, and still hold onto the notion that we are 'leaders of the Free World.'"

Ciel, when I look around the world, I do not see any country, including my own, that is significantly 'better' than the US, and many who are significantly worse in most repects. Every country I look at is selfish, though some of them may be less 'insular' because of their history, and less self-indulgent because they can't afford to be. Just give them half a chance...And education is suffering everywhere...

But I see no other country where freedom of expression is so clearly and demonstrably enshrined and practiced...(Did you look at my post 'Turkey and Richard Dawkins'?)

Which brings me to another point. As someone who believes in virtually nothing, I have a ‘vested interest’ in the value of tolerance. Indeed, I regard it as the highest of virtues. But I now constantly find myself in the uncomfortable position of having to be intolerant of what is emerging as a fundamental and monumental threat to freedom of expression, and to speak out against it...I have decided that I must be intolerant of intolerance...

That’s it for now, I need a refill...And the cheese, if you can get it, is Jean Vernier, Le Rustique, very nice...

posted by Nautikos on October 19, 2008 at 6:44 PM | link to this | reply

You are so right! Do we mean what we say! I do! But your wise conclusion is prompting me to really think about it! sam

posted by sam444 on October 19, 2008 at 1:07 PM | link to this | reply