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Re: Mousehop, come out of denial and stop drinking Kool Aid

I wasn't aware I had an ilk.  I'll have to look out for them.

I have read about this bill, and it was attempting to require doctors to provide life-saving treatment to pre-viable fetuses, which seems, by definition to be a futile action, but maybe technology has improved since the last definition was written.  Obama has consistently defended abortion rights, and stated, for the record, that he believed those bills were attempts to define every unborn child as a legal person, entitled to all protections of the law.  There were already in place both a federal law and Illinois state laws defending the lives of viable infants, even those born by process of attemtped abortion.  So, Obama's criticism of his critics is exaggerated; they are not lying, merely disagreeing over interpretations, but his stand on the issues involved has been consistent.  And it makes little sense to define pre-viable fetuses as 'infants', but without such a definition, Obama can't be said to support 'infanticide'.

On the other hand, I don't see Obama as any sort of savior.  He was fifth out of five on my list among the Democratic candidates.  But when he beat Clinton, I hesitantly shifted my support to him as a better alternative to McCain, and nothing more.

posted by mousehop on October 11, 2008 at 4:32 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Mousehop, come out of denial and stop drinking Kool Aid

New Yorker, I'm just sitting here enjoying what you have to say.  Thanks, as always, for participating!!!  I shall check out the link you provided. 

posted by JanesOpinion on October 10, 2008 at 7:39 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: Re: The Value of Polls

Mousehop, we can definitely agree on your second paragraph!!!! 

posted by JanesOpinion on October 10, 2008 at 7:38 PM | link to this | reply

Mousehop, come out of denial and stop drinking Kool Aid

He voted for it 4 times as an Illinois state senator. Google is your friend.Here's his stance on the issue  - written by a journalist for an authorative newspaper, not some blog post made by a teenage lunatic at DU, KoS, or Huffington Post. Both he and his wife support these issues.
http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102197.html
After the way Hillary Clinton was viscously trashed by Obots all over web and MSM, and how ACORN frauded the caucuses - the ramifications of which are surfacing -  and by the way Obama literally controls the press, I have zero tolerance for your ilk. I don't care to hear your arguments about what a "refined gentleman" Obama is and how "we've got it all wrong; he's going to save the world". He's a pompous race baiter who will stop at nothing to lead this country to disaster.And you know why? Because he's not even American to begin with. He can pull the wool over the eyes of the vanilla-chocolate-strawberry liberal intellectuals that fawn all over him, but he's not fooling me.

Excuse me, Jane, for taking up your space.

posted by NewYorker_in_Sicily on October 10, 2008 at 6:33 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Re: The Value of Polls

Valuable information, but hardly representative, like my personal anecdotes.  After all, this survey was selected from women with such complaints.  The problem with this study as a start to sorting out the real problem is that there is no outside control; they should find a control group, and compare surveys.

But what is really important in this study is that so many of these women felt pressured by societal norms, either through their own perception, or through expressions of others.  That suggests very strongly that acceptance of out-of-wedlock pregnancy would itself decrease abortion rates.  Personally, I think every pregnancy is a kind of miracle to be celebrated, and every mother and child should be honored and supported.  But then I've never been pregnant, so I'm hardly the best judge.

posted by mousehop on October 10, 2008 at 5:29 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Jane,

Sorry, NYS, I know I frighten you (so you blocked me), but it is inaccurate and frankly dishonest of you to accuse Senator Obama of favoring infanticide.  The bill he opposed would have made unacceptable requirements on doctors having nothing to do with health, and the law would have been redundant, as fetuses surviving abortion attempts were already protected by federal law.  So, in honor of Senator Clinton, and basic honesty, I suggest you quit spreading lies.

posted by mousehop on October 10, 2008 at 5:23 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Jane,

Amen, NY in S, I'm very much with you.  And regarding your dilemma, I think that is a natural reaction, don't you?  when in a panic like that??  You're a good woman!!

posted by JanesOpinion on October 10, 2008 at 1:40 PM | link to this | reply

Jane,

being pro-woman apparently is leaving surviving fetuses to die, according to you-know-who! I was hell-bent on pro-choice up until early last year when I had pregnancy scare. I was in a relationship that was doomed due to incompatibility and long distance. Though thank God I wasn't pregnant but I was in AGONY for two months over what to do. I'm still wracked with guilt over the thought of even entertaining the idea of an abortion which goes beyond my being Catholic. I don't wish it on my own worst enemy! Today, with the sole exception of sexual abuse and health risks, where I would respect pro-choice, I'm a staunch pro-lifer.

posted by NewYorker_in_Sicily on October 10, 2008 at 12:53 PM | link to this | reply

Re: Alternatives

missjohn316, pregnancy centers are a fantastic resource for women.  Thanks for your great input!!

posted by JanesOpinion on October 10, 2008 at 11:03 AM | link to this | reply

Re: The Value of Polls

mousehop I understand your perspective that polls can be created to conclude whatever the author wishes.  Even a so called objective, double blinded placebo controlled "scientific" study can be manipulated to get the answers one wants. 

However, that said, your anecdotal reference to women you know who've had abortions and don't have any negative sequellae is also fantastically unobjective!! 

I went to the research that was referenced and have included parts of it below, in case you are interested.  OK, well, it looks like the whole thing copied.  Here's where I found it http://www.afterabortion.org/survey1.html -- and yes, this is a survey of likely more "disgruntled" women but still provides some very interesting input.

A Survey of WEBA Members The following material is taken from Appendix Two of Aborted Women: Silent No More by David C. Reardon (Loyola University Press, 1987) For a more complete discussion of the survey findings, plus a review of other literature on the topic and testimonies from some of the survey participants, see Aborted Women, Silent No More . Note, this was a survey of women who had some involement with Women Exploited By Abortion, a peer support group for women who were experiencing negative post-abortion reaction. Because this is a self-selected sample of the those who had a "bad experience" these findings should not be interpreted as representative of a random sample of all women who have had abortions. What percentage of women have "bad experiences" such as those described herein remains unknown. (See Limitations on Post-Abortion Research: Why We Know So Little for a description of why post-abortion researchers have been unable to come up with even a crude estimate of how many women experience post-abortion problems.) Despite the fact that this sample cannot be generalized to the whole population, the results do appear to be representative of the experiences of those women who do have difficulties after an abortion. This is a legitimate reference point in and of itself. This study is analogous to studying a group of patients who all becoming ill from, for example, an artificial sweetener. It is proper scientific method to study the symptoms and experiences of this group of "sick" patients. Only then can their "illness" be cataloged and a hypothesis be developed. Only after identifying the primary symptoms could one then go out and survey all users of the artificial sweetener to determine how widespread these symptoms may be. This latter stage is part of our ongoing work. In referring to the findings of this study, then, it would be most appropriate to say, for example, "Of women who report post-abortion problems, 53% felt 'forced' to abort by one or more other people, and 39% report feeling very much 'forced' to abort by others." APPENDIX TWO Survey Results The survey discussed in Chapter One was distributed through WEBA chapters to 252 women in 42 states. It consisted of two sections: background information and the actual survey questions. The instructions read as follows: ABORTION EXPERIENCE QUESTIONNAIRE  This survey is being conducted to review the decision-making processes of women who have had abortions, and their subsequent satisfaction or dissatisfaction with their decisions. Please answer the questions as honestly as possible. If you wish to elaborate, please feel free to write further explanations or comments on separate sheets of paper. (If possible, please number your explanations according to the number of the question which prompted your comment.) Your written comments may be used in published results of this study. Names and addresses will not be used and will remain confidential unless written permission for use is requested and granted. If you know of anyone else who has had an abortion and may be willing to answer this survey, please make a photocopy of this form for them, or write to the survey address for an additional copy. Survey Participants The first section of the survey requested a variety of background information. Tabulation of the background information yielded the following results: AGE DISTRIBUTIONS  AGE AT TIME OF ABORTION <15 yrs 15-19 20-24 25-29 >30 3% 42% 33% 14% 8% Average age at time of abortion: 21.2 yrs Low age at time of abortion: 12 yrs High age at time of abortion: 40 yrs AGE AT TIME OF SURVEY <20 yrs 20-24 25-29 30-34 >34 1% 11% 33% 35% 20% Average age at time of survey: 31.2 yrs Low age at time of survey: 16 yrs High age at time of survey: 64 yrs Average time since abortion: 10.0 yrs (Survey age minus abortion age) Greatest time since abortion: 36 yrs Least time since abortion: 7 months RACE OR ETHNIC ORIGIN White 87% Other 13% LEGAL AND ILLEGAL ABORTIONS  Legal 92% Illegal 8% EDUCATION LEVEL Degree Equivalent  No Answer Under 12 yrs High School (12 yrs) Associate or Trade (13-14) Bachelors (15-16) Masters (17-18) Ph.D. (>18) 5% 6% 39% 26% 19% 4% 1% WEEKS PREGNANT AT TIME OF ABORTION  <5 wks 5-6 7-8 9-10 11-12 13-24 >24 2% 13% 23% 18% 24% 19% 0% Average gestation at time of abortion: 10.2 wks Low gestation at time of abortion: 4 wks High gestation at time of abortion: 23 wks MARITAL STATUS Single: 65% Engaged: 8% Married: 17% Separated: 11% NUMBER OF CHILDREN  0 1 2 3 >3 73% 14% 9% 4% 1% INCOME LEVEL  Under $5,000 per year: 33% $5,000 to $10,000: 25% $10,000 to $15,000: 14% $15,000 to $20,000: 7% Over $20,000: 21% Though the above figures tend to show that the women surveyed generally had low incomes at the time of their abortions, these numbers should be interpreted with caution. These figures are not necessarily indicative of the general incomes or social classes of these aborters. At the time of their abortions, most of these women were in their early twenties or late teens; many were college students. While some respondents elsewhere indicated that they were from middle- or upper-class families, they considered themselves independent at the time of their abortions (whether working or attending college) and so reported only their personal incomes. Thus, the income potential of many of these aborters may have been significantly higher than the above figures indicate. Moreover, these income levels are not adjusted for inflation.  SUBSIDY OF ABORTION  "This question was meant to identify government subsidized abortions (i.e. through federal or state Medicare programs). Another frequent response, however, was that insurance (usually the insurance policy of the woman's parents or college insurance) covered the costs of the abortion. Responses such as 'paid for by boyfriend,' or 'parents' were tallied as being abortions that were not subsidized." Subsidized: 23% Government subsidy: 64% Insurance subsidy: 36% Unsubsidized: 77% Survey Results Following the background questions was a list of 58 questions which were to be answered on a scale of 0 to 5. According to the directions for this final section: Instructions: Unless otherwise indicated, most questions require answers on a scale where 1=Not At All, ranging up to 5=Very Much. Unsure is always indicated by circling 0. In practice, most of the women did not answer any question which they felt was not applicable to their circumstances. If, for example, they had not consulted with their parents before their abortions, they simply did not circle a response to the question as to whether or not their parents influenced their decisions. Since computer tabulation of the results would have been overly complicated by unanswered questions, all unanswered questions were recorded as a "0" response. Therefore, all "0" responses include those respondents who were unsure of their response to a particular question, as well as those who were sure that the question was "Not Applicable" (N/A) to their particular circumstances. The following is a complete listing of the questions asked, with answers recorded according to the percentage of respondents falling in each category. N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 1. Were vou satisfied with the abortion services you received? 10% 44% 8% 18% 10% 8% 2. Were you satisfied with your choice at the time? 8% 42% 14% 13% 10% 14% 3. Are you satisfied with your choice today? 3% 95% 0% 1% 0% 1% 4. Was the decision made for reasons of: mental health? 40% 34% 4% 6% 6% 11% physical health? 41% 48% 2% 3% 1% 6% financial limits? 32% 27% 5% 9% 5% 23% social acceptance? 20% 12% 3% 7% 10% 47% family size? 42% 48% 1% 2% 1% 6% career goals? 41% 30% 4% 7% 5% 13% Iong-term needs? 43% 22% 4% 7% 6% 18% short-term needs? 41% 14% 2% 5% 9% 28% other? 54% 2% 0% 3% 2% 39% 5. Do you feel you were "forced" by outside circumstances to have an abortion? 4% 12% 10% 10% 10% 54% 6. Were you encouraged to have an abortion by: parents? 34% 35% 2% 6% 2% 21% other family members? 41% 39% 3% 3% 2% 12% husband? 54% 33% 1% 1% 2% 9% boyfriend? 27% 27% 2% 4% 7% 33% social worker? 52% 32% 2% 0% 4% 10% abortion counselor? 39% 20% 2% 4% 8% 27% doctor? 41% 27% 3% 6% 5% 18% friends? 38% 28% 2% 7% 6% 18% other? 77% 5% 0% 2% 3% 13% 7. Would your choice have been different if any or all of the above had encouraged you differently? 8% 4% 2% 3% 7% 76% 8. Do you feel you were "forced" by others to have an abortion? 4% 23% 10% 10% 14% 39% 9. If abortion had not been legally available, would you have sought an illegal abortion? 16% 72% 3% 4% 2% 4% 10. Would you have attempted a self-induced abortion? 4% 87% 2% 2% 2% 3% 11. Did you feel rushed to have an abortion? 3% 8% 3% 5% 12% 69% 12. How long did you take to decide? 1-4 days 1 wk. 2-3 wks. 4-6 wks. longer 51% 24% 12% 6% 6% N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 13. Do you feel your decision was well thought out? 1% 74% 8% 9% 2% 6% 14. Do you feel you had all of the necessary information to make the decision? 2% 88% 5% 3% 1% 2% 15. Have you had more than one abortion? Yes-24% No-76% How many? 1 2 3 >3 76% 20% 3% 2% N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 16. Would you ever have another abortion? 4% 95% 1% 0% 0% 0% 17. Were there any physical complications following the procedure? Yes 47%, No 44%, Unsure 9% 18. If so, were they severe or minor? (minor-1; severe-5) 47% 15% 6% 14% 4% 15% 19. Was there any permanent damage? Yes 18%, No 47%, Unsure 35% 20. Have any subsequent pregnancies resulted in miscarriage or premature birth? Yes 23%, No 67%, Unsure 10% If so, does your doctor attribute it to your previous abortion? Yes 5%, No 5%, Unsure 88% 21. Were there any negative psychological effects you attribute to your abortion? Yes 94%, No 2%, Unsure 4% 22. If so, were they minor or severe? (minor-l; severe-5) 6% 4% 3% 14% 19% 54% 23. Did they persist: 1-6 mos. 1-2 yrs over 3 years ? 8% 10% 82% N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 24. Do they still persist? 7% 25% 23% 19% 8% 18% 25. Was post-abortion counseling available through the clinic or referral agency? 16% 76% 4% 1% 1% 2% 26. Did you require professional counseling and/or treatment? 8% 45% 4% 6% 6% 31% 27. Were you using a form of birth control when you conceived? Yes 23%, No 74%, Unsure 3% 28. Were you familiar with the available forms of birth control? 1% 7% 8% 15% 7% 63% 29. Knowing where your life is today, would you still have chosen abortion? 4% 94% 1% 0% 0% 1% 30. Did you discuss your decision with others? 1% 25% 28% 19% 10% 18% 31. When you went to the clinic or counselor, was your decision already firm? 5% 30% 9% 16% 10% 31% 32. Were you still looking for options? 9% 29% 9% 7% 8% 36% 33. Did the clinic, doctor, or counselor help you to explore your decision? 2% 84% 7% 3% 1% 3% 34. Do you feel their opinions were biased? 23% 6% 3% 3% 7% 59% If so: for abortion  79% or against abortion 1% n/a 20% N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 35. Were you adequately informed about the procedure? 4% 49% 17% 15% 10% 6% 36. Were you given information about the biological nature of the fetus? 4% 90% 3% 2% 0% 2% 37. Were you well informed about the procedure and fetus through other sources before seeking an abortion? 1% 83% 7% 5% 0% 4% 38. Was your decision made in consultation with your doctor? 2% 70% 4% 5% 6% 14% 39. Were you encouraged to ask questions? 6% 64% 16% 8% 3% 2% 40. Were your questions thoroughly answered to your satisfaction? 19% 52% 12% 8% 4% 4% 41. Do you believe there was information you were not given, or were misinformed about? 8% 10% 1% 4% 4% 73% 42. Were risks and dangers discussed? 7% 65% 16% 5% 4% 4% 43. What was your opinion about the nature of the fetus? no answer 4% human 26% non-human 30% other 40% What is your opinion about the nature of the fetus? no answer 3% human 97% non-human 0% other 0% N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 44. If counseling a friend who was in a situation such as yours, would you encourage her to choose an abortion? 1% 98% 0% 0% 0% 1% 45. Was your self-image improved or worsened by your decision? (worsened-1; improved-5) 2% 89% 4% 3% 1% 1% 46. Is your life today better or worse because of your decision? (worse-l; improved-5) 21% 60% 6% 8% 1% 4% 47. Was the period of your pregnancy before the abortion emotionally traumatic? 4% 11% 6% 10% 11% 60% 48. Did you feel in control of your life when making your decision? 3% 65% 8% 9% 6% 10% 49. Did you feel your life was controlled by others? 4% 16% 8% 12% 14% 47% 50. Did the knowledge that abortion was legal influence your opinion about the morality of choosing abortion? 11% 12% 1% 6% 12% 58% 51. Did you consider carrying the pregnancy to term? 5% 19% 12% 15% 12% 38% 52. Did you consider keeping the baby? 6% 23% 10% 13% 10% 49% 53. Did you consider adoption? 4% 62% 13% 7% 6% 8% 54. Under better circumstances, would you have kept the baby? 10% 1% 2% 3% 3% 81% 55. After your abortion, did you hope to have children at a later time? 6% 6% 1% 2% 1% 84% 56. Were there periods when you felt good or excited about your pregnancy? 9% 23% 8% 6% 10% 43% 57. What were your feelings about abortion prior to becoming pregnant? (negative-1; positive-5) 21% 33% 8% 20% 6% 12% 58. What are your feelings about abortion today? (negative-1; positive-5) 1% 98% 1% 0% 0% 0% Planned Parenthood Clients Because Planned Parenthood has a reputation as one of the best, most professional, abortion providers, the researcher separted out those survey respondents who received counseling and/or their abortions at Planned Parenthood clinics. He then tabulated their answers separately. A total of 53 respondents (21% of all respondents) fell into this subgroup. Their answers to the following questions were selected to provide a comparison of Planned Parenthood services to those of abortion providers as a whole. N/A or Unsure Not at All Very Much 1. Were you satisfied with the abortion services you received? 11% 45% 11% 13% 8% 11% 6f. Were you encouraged to have an abortion by (your) abortion counselor? 26% 10% 2% 2% 12% 48% 28. Would your choice have been different if any or all of the above had encouraged you differently? 8% 0% 0% 0% 13% 80% 31. When you went to the clinic or counseior, was your decision to abort already firm? 26% 36% 11% 23% 4% 25% 32. Were you still looking for options? 11% 19% 6% 9% 9% 45% 33. Did the clinic, doctor, or counselor help you to explore your decision? 2% 85% 13% 0% 0% 0% 34. Do you feel their opinions were biased? 19% 4% 2% 4% 6% 66% If so: for abortion  89% or against abortion 0% n/a 12% 35. Were you adequately informed about the procedure?  2% 43% 15% 23% 11% 6% 36. Were you given information about the biological nature of the fetus? 2% 85% 8% 4% 0% 2% 37. Were you well informed about the procedure and fetus through other sources before seeking an abortion? 2% 81% 4% 6% 0% 8% 38. Was your decision made in consultation with your doctor? 2% 89% 2% 2% 0 % 6% 39. Were you encouraged to ask questions? 4% 60% 19% 11% 4% 2% 40. Were your questions thoroughly answered to your satisfaction? 17% 53% 11% 13% 2% 4% 41. Do you believe there was information you were not given or were misinformed about? 4% 13% 0% 4% 6% 74% 42. Were risks and dangers discussed? 6% 62% 19% 8% 4% 2% See more about Aborted Women, Silent No More

posted by JanesOpinion on October 10, 2008 at 11:01 AM | link to this | reply

Alternatives

When I had an unplanned pregnancy in 2005, I was in turmoil but I knew I wasn't going to destroy my child. I learned about pregnancy centers. They help expecting mothers and women with children. I had a good job at the time so my friends, family and I were able to take care of everything without the aid of a pregnancy center. But I'm glad that these centers exist for women who want to keep their baby but have limited resources. These places are an alternative to abortion clinics. We need more of them.

posted by missjohn316 on October 10, 2008 at 10:21 AM | link to this | reply

I've always believed that self-hatred among women is the root issue

of both abortion (I'm nothing with a baby/another baby) and the baby-factory syndrome (I'm nothing without a baby).

posted by FineYoungSinger on October 10, 2008 at 10:13 AM | link to this | reply

The Value of Polls

This article says that 85% of Americans think abortion causes emotional problems for the women who have them, but, frankly, I couldn't care less about that.  I know women who have had abortions, and they don't have serious emotional issues because of it.  Now, if there were a study proving that women do, in fact have such problems, I would pay attention.  But most Americans have been wrong so many times, their opinions on matters of fact can be safely ignored.

My brief and superficial research into the issue suggests that studies "prove" what their authors believed going in, so liberals find no problem, while religious conservatives find epidemics.  On balance, I expect it is an issue, but not a major one.  More important is the issue of decreasing unwanted pregnancy, which might also have serious emotional distress associated with it.  Maybe that should be included in all the studies.

posted by mousehop on October 10, 2008 at 7:57 AM | link to this | reply