Comments on Thought-Ruts & Dualism

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It's funny

and definitely is a strange loop. Diversity is great, though! Between the lot of the bloggers I read in this loop, you all manage to churn out some damn good stuff. I'm happy to be part a part of everyone's reading. In fact, we should all go on tour, man.

As for GoldenMean and me, he left me a bunch of very well thought out ideas in comments to a couple recent posts of mine at Polemics. I've been meaning to respond to him and our mutual friend rovesciato on some points they both made -- got the notions jotted down already in my notebook -- but have gotten caught up in actually drafting new posts and diversifying my blogs at the BN. (One's titled "Brent's Passions.")

posted by BrWiSk on November 11, 2003 at 1:34 PM | link to this | reply

Thank you

by the way, rovesciato, or else it woul have probably taken me a while to look into Br's blogs (not that they don't interest me, but I probably would have looked at his comments on other's blogs and thought 'oh thats cool, i'll have to read his blog some day' and my lazy ass wouldn't get around to it for a month.)

and to Damon, this planet--nah, this whole universe is a web-like conundrum of cycles and systems all playing in and out of each other. If our species does fall or fail, we will end up like the dinosaurs and take an evolutionary back seat. An odd musing of this is whether or not our species will retain the intellect we so arrogantly pride ourselves on, and be totally cognizant that this new, smarter, more efficient fledging evolving species is taking our place. And what will we do about it? Kind of an idea for a super, sci-fi-action film Hollywood would gobble up in a minute. hmmm...

-ek

posted by Ekildog on November 11, 2003 at 8:32 AM | link to this | reply

No, I Think...

...all networks need helping hands like yours to connect more deeply. Keep doing it!

It is a strange loop, though.

D

posted by DamonLeigh on November 10, 2003 at 9:56 PM | link to this | reply

How strange!

I was diving down the opinion browse lists when i came to the What the Hell is a Liberal or Conservative blog at 125 or something. I clicked on curious to see if GoldenMean had left another reply there since i'd taken up with him on another blog. I saw your post and hit your link. As soon as i saw it i assumed it was the post the BrWiSk had commented on saying it had inspired his own. This is uncanny because i had just mentioned BrWiSk to GoldenMean and they met, somewhat roughly, on that post. It's almost like there is a closed circle here. I think i'll feel a little bad if Br and Golden don't get along. I recomended Br to Elikdog awhile back and that seemed to work out. Maybe from now on i'll let people find each other out for themselves.  

posted by rovesciato on November 10, 2003 at 8:55 PM | link to this | reply

It's Been Fascinating...

...to see this conversation played out here. The last two comments highlight the two possibilities that I wonder about.

Are we indeed a failed experiment? If so, the planet will shrug us off at some point, either by flooding us out, through disease, through massive natural disaster or whatever. This is Lovelock's Gaia. And, if this is our destiny, then all the blind stupidity that we are witnessing today really doesn't matter because at some point, we'll be gone as a species, the planet (huge as she is) will survive just fine (better!) without us, and when the next dominant species turns up on Earth, perhaps our demise will be as much a mystery to them as that of the dinosaurs is to us.

I prefer the more hopeful view - that we are still teenagers in our evolutionary lives - hence all the blind stupidity! - and that we are destined to evolve far, far more. Technology may not play as big a role as some believe; it may be evolution of a more psycho-physiological nature, and certainly deeply spiritual.

I'll expand on this in a later post - it's too long for a Comment!

But thank you, folks, for the ideas an conversation.

D

posted by DamonLeigh on November 10, 2003 at 3:40 AM | link to this | reply

Brent

I really can't comment on the process of evolution. (One, I really don't think I'm smart enough, and two, after discussing the subject many times when I was younger, stoned, I've found that its something equally philosophical in nature.) Our evolution is in its infancy and in the grand scheme of nature, I feel, it is presently beyond my comprehension from the standpoint as a being involved in that process. Maybe when I'm dead everything will be clearer. However, I can understand the man-made, sociological world around me and thats the one I'd prefer to know and try to foster toward a less destructive path in terms of our progress.

We are unique animals in that we adopt and adapt qualities very easily for survival; we are tapped into our emotional personalities. I have friends whom I consider to be parasitic in nature, and others whom I perceive as more docile and simply grazing through life. I think, that, the flaw is not inherently mankind but rather mankind's performance, their activites; which, as a whole, if anyone were to judge they would be less than impressed.

Life, in terms of nature and society then, I think, is not what has been created but how it is being used. We can change.

-Ek

posted by Ekildog on November 8, 2003 at 12:43 PM | link to this | reply

great points, Ekildog....

I wonder, though, if evolution has a purpose. It propels, yes...but it has no purpose that I can see. It just transpires.

And even if it does have a purpose, we cannot assume it is for the advancement of mankind. We are, admittedly, evolution's crowning achievement in terms of intellect spawned; nevertheless, we are also a failed experiment.

We might want to consider the possibility that the extinction of entire planets is evolution's built-in radiator. Humanity, basically a parasite, works itself into a frenzy and dies out, taking an entire planet with it but at least not spreading to other "hosts."

posted by BrWiSk on November 7, 2003 at 3:11 PM | link to this | reply

ooooh

Hm. To answer (or at least try) this one, I'm going to have to refer to twentieth century film. Namely, Fight Club: "The Things you own end up owning you."

We are (at least in this country) enamored with possessions and material wealth. This is not the purpose for a society, especially not mankind as a whole in terms of evolution. If we are all 'slaves' then our 'masters' are objects that we attribute higher value to, that we seek in terms of our egos and status. In other words, we are not complete with out these things.

The solution, as I see it, is it get off that track of material possessions and return to the seeking of Truth, ideas, bettering ourselves and trying to understand each other. Maybe these things are just too boring and Hollywood has made them hokey and Disney-like to the masses. The masses want glitz, glamour, and aggrandized ideas of self which are mostly unattainable.

Unfortunately, Nietzche was right and we live in a post-modern century where ideas are only rehashed and revamped, reused and unevaluated further. His claim to fame was that we must rise up over these times of malaise and find for ourselves the meanings we would like, we must become "Godlike" in our own way and create a new world from the stagnancy around us.

Few people, I fear, are up to the task or even know where to begin. Everyone else is happy with their McDonald's and Budweiser, American Idol and Bachelor TV, and settles into the unchanged fundamentalism of tyrannical religious beliefs while siding with a government that only cares to keep them distracted, uninformed, and complacent in their sloth.

 

posted by Ekildog on November 7, 2003 at 12:30 PM | link to this | reply

Ek-LOL-one step further?

There's a new problem with the cycle. In the U.S. and the rest of the western world it is hard to identify who is a slave and who is a master. Guy Debord talks about "survival augmented" and peoples enslavement to things we think we need in order to have a happy existence. We all seem to want more of everything and even the richest of people work endless hours to become that much more rich. Does the fact that we work more than we have to in order to survive make us slaves in some way? Is it possible that values that we have could make us give away our freedom voluntarily without being aware of it? If there is any truth to this, which seems to be a distinct possibility, then how will the cycle continue if we are all slaves?

posted by pastiboy28 on November 6, 2003 at 3:43 PM | link to this | reply

Well, hell...

If you really want to get into it... Frederick Hegel (the man who supposedly set the standard for culture in the twentieth century)stated in his Master-Slave Theory that all those defined as Masters become Slaves because the Mastership becomes overdependent on the Slaves for the continuing abundance of their society; i.e., they get spoiled. The Slaves, dissatisfied with their status, are more prone to getting answers and building for themselves since they actually have to work while the Masters simply reap the rewards. The Slaves are thus more independent and, of course, rebel. This can be interpreted as a cycle, however, in the twentieh century overwhelming access and rapid creation of communications and technology made the means by which a Slave society could overthrow a Master society nearly unimaginable given the new standards being set forth. The Slave society not only creates these technologies nowadays but is also undermined by the same technologies they produce, and additionally, Slave societies have little knowledge or understanding of all technologies, systems, and policies being incorporated by the Master society.

The result: A society that feels oppressed, helplessly, and frustrated but with no outlet for continuing the cycle.

(Or maybe the cycle will just take longer to recover. OR maybe the cycle will become more extreme at the climactic exchange of power between Slave and Master.)

-Ek

posted by Ekildog on November 6, 2003 at 2:03 PM | link to this | reply

I have to disagree with one point

After thinkning about what you said for a while I was reminded of ideas presented by Engels after that death of Marx. Engels thought that socialist could enter into government instead of revolt against it. He argued that supporters of the working class could stay true to their cause inside of another system. The end result time and time again was that patriotism lead to socialist aligning with the bourgeois government and sending off members of the working class to die in wars that were not their own. In addition, socialist parties have supported policies that exploit the poor of other nations. Capitalism can ONLY enslave the worker. It may free the proletarians of one state only to enslave those of another. The dualism of which you speak was created by socialists and not capitalists. This was precisely to prevent the idea that you could have a bit of both and the worker would be okay. Were they right? How is the plight of the worker worldwide?

posted by pastiboy28 on November 5, 2003 at 4:47 PM | link to this | reply

the free market...

...of ideas, that is. Seems like the Repulicans like fewer and fewer free markets as the days wear on. ...

posted by BrWiSk on November 5, 2003 at 3:35 PM | link to this | reply

Dualism is All-'Merican, Boy!

Ahm a tobaccy-chewin' all-'Merican boy. Ah resent yer assumpshun that we's all think black n' whaht. We's don't. We's hate black! So's you best be willin' to shut yer commie pinko trap, boy. Here in God's chosen land, 'Merica, it's Bush. It's Reepublikan. It's Christeean. It's nuttin' else, understand there, boy? There ain't nuttin' else. That way we's can all be the same, keep magical thinkin' in ar skools, an make 'dem lib'ruls move to Iranistan.

 

A concerned, if not slightly red-neck'd, citizun.

posted by ShawnMichel on November 5, 2003 at 3:19 PM | link to this | reply

This is the smartest thing I...

have read on BN. Although I do believe that in the long run only one economic policy will prevail your comments on categorization are correct. In today's world you pick a party or a label and that tells you what you belive instead of the opposite way around and it's making us all dumber which is great for the people already in control. I can't even have debates with like minded people because their ideas are all based in what they want to be labeled as and what group they want to be a part of. Thought is the answer and our current system deters it.

Good stuff.

posted by pastiboy28 on November 5, 2003 at 2:53 PM | link to this | reply

I'm in so much agreement...

...I've just posted something related at my blog. You are dead on right, man. This is the kind of thinking that keeps us from finding the answers. At all times we consider only two possibilities. Whatever happened to the free market? You know?

posted by BrWiSk on November 5, 2003 at 2:21 PM | link to this | reply