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Foliage
It's not that we have here an attempt to return to a pre-industrial society! What I have said, however, applies very much to societal and political arrangements - no separation between mosque and state, for example...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 2:40 PM
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Naut: Part VII
...pre0-medieval life? So, there's not bending here? No keepiing up with the Jones? ...politicl manifest? Oh, my.......... --Joy!Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 29, 2007 at 2:34 PM
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Foliage
To this day, Arabs are caught between Scylla and Charibdis: their claim to Islams's 'universality' always gets stranded on the rocks of Islam's tribalism. To this day, it prescribes a medieval (or pre-medieval) Arabic way of life!
We must remember that, for Mohammed, the Koran is in part politically motivated, it is in many ways a political manifesto...
posted by
Nautikos
on April 29, 2007 at 7:06 AM
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Naut
Islam as a way of life, okay. Am I missing something? I thought Allah was the same God as other religions, so he only speaks Arabic? --Mary
posted by
FoliageGold
on April 28, 2007 at 8:00 AM
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CP
thanks for your extensive and insightful comment. I think I do understand, at least in principle, your position regarding God's true 'identity'. I must tell you, though, from an agnostic's perspective that is a moot point. Here my concern is with Mohammed's and/or the Koran's intentions, and there can be no doubt that the God speaking to Mohammed is intended as the God of Abraham, i.e. YHWH. References to that abound throughout the Koran. And, for 'practical' purposes, that is from whence the claim for Islam's superiority derives!
I have no doubt that Mohammed was a very complex man. However, I have not paid much attention to his personality, since I believe that for our understanding of Islam the wider historical context is more important, as will become clear in subsequent posts.
Sufi mysticism is interesting, but, in a sense, an anomaly. As far as I know (and that does not go very far, admittedly), there are strands of sufiism connecting it to various eastern religions, and predating Islam.
posted by
Nautikos
on March 23, 2007 at 7:36 AM
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No, Chyrlann, Allah is not YHWH
That is one of the major flaws in Islam. Uniqueness is not the point, but the identity of the divine. "I AM THAT I AM" as a name of the divine represents extraordinary insight that is lacking in the mere name of "god", "idol" or "that which is worshipped", as I understand it the meanings of the Arabic word "allah".
There are, however, monks in Islam, the Sufis. From what I have read of them, they have more of an interest in Jesus(Isa), Mary (Mariam) as the one who bore Jesus being emblematic of those who have "Christ within them" and the shorter, earlier suras.
Like I said in my earlier comment, Muhammed was deeply conflicted. There is a good Muhammed and a bad Muhammed. The bad Muhammed sounds an awful lot like a combination of Hitler and Joseph Smith. Extreme nationalism with unbridled and deviant sexuality. The good Muhammed recited some pretty poetry and tried to persuade Jews and Christians to recognize and to affirm his experiences and his poetry. Both Muhammeds had to deal with the problem of Meccan business having a religious requirement in the sense that the best money was in selling stuff to pilgrims. Neither the Jews nor the Christians were interested in an idol joint venture with Muhammed, so he went into highway robbery with a grudge against the "people of the Book" whom he had once courted. At this point, we are firmly in bad Muhammed land, but the old poems remain and provide the face of "good Islam".
Add to this the further complicating factor that most Muslims know precious little of the Qu'ran. The American Muslims have read it more, but mostly from the perspective of hate, of gangs and of wanting the discipline of soldiers in their own wars, rather than any interest in a God of Love. They think the bad Muhammed is good.
Carl Peter
posted by
cpklapper
on March 22, 2007 at 8:31 PM
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Natikos,
I am sorry for myself that it took me so long to find you here. I was unaware of your writing regarding the Koran and the Bible. I was confronted with the Koran around '95 when I started in real estate. I befriended a new agent in our office and began learning of her life. I was introduced to several of her friends, boyfriends friends and they were all of the Islam faith, most recently given new names in the faith, etc. I became curious of their faith because my new friend was a widow of a Baptist preacher in a large congregation here in our town. One of the things that attracted me to my new friend was because she had been a Christian minister's wife for nearly twenty years. This boyfriend and friends of his were somewhat scary to me. They had come from well known gangs in a larger metropolis north of our area. They still wore the colors and spoke as such. I wasn't around them a lot, but they spoke of Mohammed and the Islam faith and the Koran. The internet was fairly new to me, but I had recently got hooked up because of my occupation and went online to learn as much as I could about the faith. I was instantly fearful upon reading some of what Mohammed had to say and I was astonished to learn such a large population followed a faith based upon hatred for other of God's creation. I didn't continue the research, but was extremely concerned for my friend. This was now our third year in real estate together and we had gotten to know one another quite well, so I felt it important that I share with her what I had learned. She was instantly offended and vengeful and cut off our relationship. The entire situation was devastating for me and even more so real estate had become too insecure but one of the reasons I eventually gave up the occupation.
Reading this series has brought those memories back for me. I still can't believe anyone on earth would choose a faith based upon hatred. We do share the same God? The presence of all light & perfection? The presence of all love and every living thing? That confused me. Maybe it is not the same God? Maybe Allah is not Jehovah? There is no other faith based upon vengence, resentment and hatred. I've never concerned myself with others of faith because our truths were based upon the same truth of love, redeption, forgiveness, protection and eternal life, are they not?
Thank you for your contributions here. Your writing is extrememly appeciated.
posted by
roadscross
on March 21, 2007 at 4:43 PM
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Wiley
good point! Except that Christianity suggests a 'withdrawal' from this world while still in it, whereas the suicide bomber withdraws all the way into the tents of the virgins...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 21, 2007 at 1:52 PM
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My dear TAPS,
thanks for your continued interest, and, first or not, you certainly deserve a star as well!
posted by
Nautikos
on March 21, 2007 at 1:49 PM
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Nautikos
"To be sure, Islam also demands a life of virtue, but does not suggest a withdrawal from the world. There are no Muslim monks. And that is also why, to this very day, Islam is not merely a religion, but a way of life."
Aren't suicide bombers suggesting a withdrawal from the world rather speedily?lol Great work you did here my friend.
posted by
WileyJohn
on March 21, 2007 at 8:31 AM
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Nautikos
Well, I'm never first here, but I do arrive sooner or later and usually before the next post is presented. I find your study very interesting, mainly because I have not studied Mohammed, the Koran, or the Islam religion enough for myself. I have focused mainly on The Bible and plan to continue to do that. For me, The Bible contains the words of life.
posted by
TAPS.
on March 20, 2007 at 10:16 PM
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OTA
thanks, and you're welcome...
posted by
Nautikos
on March 20, 2007 at 7:22 PM
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Justi
indeed, you're always the first commentator, and here's your gold star!
posted by
Nautikos
on March 20, 2007 at 7:21 PM
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Naut
very interesting comparison.. thank you for doing this.
posted by
Blue_feathers
on March 20, 2007 at 6:13 PM
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Nautikos
Very well done. Do I get the gold star? I think I am the first commenter on all your pages of this episode.... Job well done. You made the right point resentment!
posted by
Justi
on March 20, 2007 at 5:48 PM
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