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Don't take too long dear ariel70. I'm most interested in all this.
posted by
Kabu
on February 7, 2007 at 3:20 PM
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Tony
Yes you right about the current forms of anti-Semitism.
And yes, some people were " staggered " but others joined in with enthusiam.
As one small example, in 1943, Lithuanian anti-Semites, while Germans watched, laughing, beat 1,200 Jews to death in a Kovno square.
posted by
ariel70
on February 7, 2007 at 3:03 PM
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Kabu
You shall have all the data that you need to convince you. It might not be soon tho' cos, I have several articles to research and write for a local magazine ( Which I shall also post once they're published )
posted by
ariel70
on February 7, 2007 at 3:00 PM
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I'll need heaps of un refutable evidence to believe only the Germans
could do this inhuamne deed.Please research and post.... Please.
posted by
Kabu
on February 7, 2007 at 2:32 PM
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I'm sure you're right, although anti-semitism was and is widespread.
I was referring really to the Jewish reaction, or the reaction of the locals in the invaded territories. Being not Nazis themselves, well most of them, they must have been staggered when they saw these events unfolding...
posted by
Antonionioni
on February 7, 2007 at 12:06 PM
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Ariel, what a word picture you have painted. I did not want to see this.
The holocaust made personal, and I thought I'd let go of all that. Great writing. Horrible topic. Thanks. :)pat
posted by
Pat_B
on February 7, 2007 at 8:58 AM
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Ariel
I've read it all.
posted by
Nautikos
on February 7, 2007 at 4:57 AM
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Kabu P.S.
Churchill made his " ... crime without a name .." speech to Parliament in June 1944, but, without looking it up, I can't say when knowledge of the Holocaust became widespread in the West.
AS you rightly point out, hate and kill your neighbour is as old as man, but the Shoah is unique in human history, for no nation had ever set out to destroy completely what it deemed to be another race. It was also unique in its methodolgy
posted by
ariel70
on February 6, 2007 at 2:51 PM
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Kabu
Zivia only appears peripherally in my book after her story.
I'm afraid that the evidence now is irrefutable ; only in German society, long long before Hitler tapped into it an eliminationist antisemitism could make possible the Holocaust.
Yes, there was -- often widespread and murderous -- antisemitism in other countries ( especially Russia, the Baltic States, Poland and other eastern countries, but factors unique to Germany dictated that only Germans could and would initiate the Holocaust. Only they had equipped themselves mentally and socially to do it ; nobody else had.
I haven't yet decided whether to post about this.
posted by
ariel70
on February 6, 2007 at 2:47 PM
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I would love another Zivia story that tells how she survived the war,
and that tells us of other horrors that she witnessed. Only Germany could do this? I disagree, hate against neighbour and ethnic cleansing is as old as time and just about the most bestial of human nature. Also isn't there evidence that the allies had some idea of atrocities happening, but it was no huge deal since it was the Jews who were the victims?
posted by
Kabu
on February 6, 2007 at 2:35 PM
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Passion
Oops! I meant that I shall only mention a small number of course.
posted by
ariel70
on February 6, 2007 at 12:51 PM
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Passion
The post that I shall do tomorrow is really fascinating, partly in the incredible variety of people who acted as guardian angels for the Jews.
It was only note a small number of these, but there were hundreds of thousands who acted as they did. Yin and yang ; black and white.
posted by
ariel70
on February 6, 2007 at 12:50 PM
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Tony
Thank you.
More recent research has proved that millions of Germans knew, and heartily approved of, the mass slaying of the Jews, as early as 1941. I think I might do a post/s on how no other nation but Germany could have perpetrated the Shoah. A rabid eliminationist anti-semitism was so deeply rooted in all sections of German society that I truly believe that even had Hitler not come to power there would have been prolonged killings of Jews ; although on a smaller scale.
On my Journal blog tomorrow, I shall redress the balance a little
posted by
ariel70
on February 6, 2007 at 12:48 PM
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Well written from start to finish, El Tel.
It really is hard to comprehend. We feel that every time we read about it even now, so we can pretty much understand the disbelief that people felt at the time before the precious evidence was laid before them.
posted by
Antonionioni
on February 6, 2007 at 12:18 PM
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Your writing is intense and passionate...moving story!
I like that you're presenting the other side too. Man has such a capacity for good or evil. It's easier to choose evil though.
posted by
Passionflower
on February 6, 2007 at 10:25 AM
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