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Debate can be deadly
Norseman-- if everyone were as pleasant and peaceful as you and I and Whimsy, debates about religious doctrine would always be a good thing, among decent people seeking the truth.
But in the 2 millenia since Christ, the debates over his doctrines have been very deadly, claiming 40 to 50 million victims killed in the various medieval Inquisitions alone. The persecutions started very early. After early clashes with Gnosticism, Montanism, Adoptionism, and Modalism, the "orthodox" Christians became very intolerant. The adoptionist Bishop of Antioch, Paul of Samosata, was pronounced a heretic and stripped of his property in about 272 A.D. After the Council of Nicaea in 325 that dictated Christian doctrine, the losers (Arians, followers of Bishop Arius) were proclaimed heretics and persecuted. This started a string of persecutions that got more and more violent. In the period 300-500 A.D., there were purges against the Donatists, Pelagians, and Nestorians, all of whom were more rational and moral than the orthodox Church, which was rapidly becoming a murdering monster. You believed what you were told, or you were killed. I wrote a post on the noble Bishop Pelagius, the last post in my blog, "The Agnostics Primer."
This is the selection process that decided what was put in our Bible, and what was thrown out. If you know the history behind it, the Bible is dripping with blood. I have difficulty reading it without mourning for all the death and misery it has contributed to. I have difficulty accepting a God that allows such a horrific process to be carried out in his name. But the message of Christ still comes through to inspire and strengthen us all. The message of Jesus is the greatest expression of love in human history.
So, Whimsy, I am grateful for the small misinterpretation of the commandment "thou shalt not kill," which should be "thou shalt not murder." If this had been widely known by Christian authorities in past centuries, they would surely have used it to further justify their killing, by saying that the killing of heretics is not murder, but merely the winnowing of the chafe from God's harvest.
Let the debate continue, in peace and tolerance, at least until the next deadly persecutors appear among us.
posted by
GoldenMean
on November 30, 2006 at 7:47 PM
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Whimsy...
The bible really is quite amazing...written in sections over great periods of time, by many different authors and covering vast geographical distances and yet...all the pieces fit together, all parts compliment the other parts. To me this is the greatest evidense that the bible is indeed a devine manuscript.
You said it was written to take in its entirety or not at all...then you said you believe that some things may have been translated incorrectly here or there, I don't think you can have it both ways. God promised in the bible that he would preserve his word...therefore, if you believe the bible in it's entirety then you must believe that it was translated according to Gods will, as he promised.
To speak on Golden means comment; yes there are almost as many interpretations of scipture as there are people so how do we know which are correct and which are not? Therin lies the beauty of the design...God could have spelled everything out for us to the letter, but then we wouldn't need to come together and "seek" him. The fact that people disagree on scripture is a good thing...it keeps God in our conversations, in our debate, and we all know that when two or more are gathered in his name he is in the midst of us. it forces us to seek him out and in doing so...we become better aquainted with God himself. It's really quite brilliant.
posted by
A_Norseman
on November 28, 2006 at 12:10 PM
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I'm glad you're doing well, Blanche...
And, I realize that you and I have been on opposite ends of the spectrum. Has it occurred to you that the reason I keep challenging you is because I see a lot of potential in you and I care about you? Has it ever dawned on you that God sent me across your path to get you thinking because He wants more out of your relationship than you are willing to give?
Most people like to stay in their own comfort zone but God doesn't want us in a comfort zone because then we begin depending on ourselves instead of Him.
Please know that I want you to have the very best for you. And, the best that God has for you.
posted by
whimsystoryteller
on November 28, 2006 at 12:06 PM
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How do you know that I don't, Whimsy, and I can't prove it to you.
So, I guess I'll just stop trying. A person's relationship to God, in my opiinion, is very much between them and God. Have a good day, and I pray good things happen for you soon. They are for me, so in that sense, I don't think I'm doing too badly.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 28, 2006 at 11:52 AM
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But Blanche, Jesus is the Word...
I challenge you to ask Him what He thinks about you not reading and knowing the Word. That is, unless you're afraid of the answer you might get.
posted by
whimsystoryteller
on November 28, 2006 at 11:51 AM
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You're right, Whimsystoryteller, I don't know the Bible, I know Jesus
and the Spirit. That's enough. All it takes to become a Christian is to know Christ, not the bible, which is the word of Man, corrupted by translations, over time: Aramaic, Hebrew, Latin, Greek. All translations lose something in the translation and over time. It's more important to know the spirit than the letter.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 27, 2006 at 11:41 PM
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Actually, I haven't...
The Bible is the Word of God but that doesn't mean that the translators always translated every word correctly. I was talking about the original text and, for the most part, the English versions are fairly accurate. There are some spots where the translator simply didn't know the proper translation for the Hebrew or the Greek. However, there are plenty of translations out there now and plenty of Hebrew and Greek study guides with correct translation information for people to get the correct information.
An example of this are places in the Old Testament that say God put sickness on people. The correct translation of that is that He allowed the sickness to come on the people. Another more important word that was never translated into English at all is the word Christ. Christ means the Anointed One and refers to His Anointing. The best example of why this is important is Philippians 4:13 that says "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me." The way that scripture should read is "I can do all things through the Anointed One and His Anointing which strengthens me." It makes an incredible difference in the way that scripture is read and what it means. It also means that all of the people who switched the word "which" for "who" were incorrect. I was one who was guilty of that until I learned better.
If you will go through the New Testament and translate Christ for Anointed One or Anointed One and His Anointing depending on the context of the scripture, I think you will see a major difference in the way many scriptures read and it will give you an entirely different perspective.
posted by
whimsystoryteller
on November 27, 2006 at 11:37 PM
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A small point
In the first part of your post, you urge complete acceptance of every word of the Bible, or at least that is your strong implication when you say 'either the Bible is the word of God or it isn't.'
Then you point out that the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a mis-interpretation from the Hebrew, which says "Thou shalt not murder." I have pointed this out to people myself. There is a big difference between the pacifist condemnation of all killing, and the righteous killing of those who HAVE broken the true commandment "Thou shalt not murder."
But though we agree on the moral point, you have provided the undoing of your original argument. If this very important commandment has been allowed by God to be misinterpreted to us in our Bible, WHAT ELSE has been allowed to be misinterpreted... or taken out wrongly... or put in falsely... by various interpreters through the ages? By pointing out this one famous misinterpretation, you have opened the floodgates. I suspect that there are a great many things in the Bible that have been misinterpreted, for many different reasons and agendas.
posted by
GoldenMean
on November 27, 2006 at 8:44 PM
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One more thing...
It might be wise not to quote scriptures you've only heard about to someone who actually knows the Word and knows where the scriptures are. There are a lot of people who think they know what the Bible says but I actually read the Bible. In fact, I've read it through about 50 times at this point and I study the scriptures. I don't know all of them but I know what is and isn't in the Bible for the most part. I've heard people say that the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is in the Bible. WRONG! That is no where in the Bible. I often get a good chuckle at the things people think are in the Bible and they aren't.
Maybe I'm being too hard on you. Maybe you've only been saved for a short period and no one ever told you that you are supposed to study the Word. I'd highly recommend it. I think you will change a lot of your views if you actually read the Word instead of assuming you know what it says.
posted by
whimsystoryteller
on November 26, 2006 at 8:25 PM
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Blanche, you don't know the Word...
You misquoted that scripture. The scripture is Hebrews 8:10 & 11 and it says that He will write the Word upon our hearts and it will not be necessary for one to teach his neighbor. I suggest you read the whole chapter and stop taking it out of context, though. The Bible also says in Luke 16:17 that it will be easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law (the Word) to fail or become void. God puts His Word above everything because Jesus is His Word made flesh. By discounting it, you are discounting Jesus.
You have chosen to disregard the Word of God and the Bible tells us plainly that we are to study the Word to show ourselves approved of God. If you don't know the Word, how can you lead others to Jesus? And, that is the command Jesus left us right before He ascended to Heaven. He told us to go into the world and make disciples of those in the world.
The problem is that, like many who've merely accepted salvation, you have never taken the time to study the Word to find out what comes next. And, God will hold you accountable for not doing so.
posted by
whimsystoryteller
on November 26, 2006 at 8:04 PM
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Actually, somewhere in the Bible it says that Christ said, "I will write my word upon your heart and the old laws will not apply." When the Spirit is there, and Jesus is in your heart, Whimsystoryteller, there's no need to be too literal, imho.
posted by
Blanche.
on November 26, 2006 at 4:34 PM
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You are so right Whimsy! The Bible is the revealed Word of God
in its entirety! It is not a a history book, but is His (S)tory! Very good post keep writing the truth and the truth will keep you free! Blessings!
faholo
posted by
faholo
on November 26, 2006 at 4:32 PM
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