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Jane,
Excellent post!
posted by
Nautikos
on August 23, 2006 at 5:58 AM
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Xenox, I believe they're called rose colored lenses -- what you're looking
through -- i.e. your view of the past events. The Muslims and Jews have not always peacefully coexisted, as much as you would like to believe it after reading some of your re-hashed historical story books. Christians have not been the brunt of the problem for the past 100 years. I'd like to think we have learned from our mistakes. The Crusades happened a long time ago.
With all your animosity towards Christianity, why do you bother calling yourself one?
posted by
JanesOpinion
on August 22, 2006 at 8:11 AM
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leroy you are so out of it
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 22, 2006 at 7:12 AM
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you are the one who needs to look around and see reality
muslims historically have been enormously tolerant of christianity (in spite of Christianity's atrocities against many other peoples) and Judaism. Jews have enjoyed great respect and tolerance from Muslims where they have received little but total disrespect from Christians (I have included links that will demonstrate this).
were what you say true, Jerusalem would have been totally Moslem a long time ago. But jews were accepted there by Muslims once the Christians were driven off -- allowed back into the city after centuries of exile.
you have to look at recent history, primarily the 20th century, after WWI, when Britain took over much of Arab lands, and after WWII when the U.S. exploited the entire third world. You have to realize that it's not only the Arab world, but many parts of the world where the U.S. supported repressive regimes, overthrew duly elected leaders and installed repressive dictators in their place, allowed repressive death squads to murder and torture, particularly in El Salvador -- remember that?
and Africa? an entire continent largely ignored and allowed to sink into poverty and war and disease.
no it's not just the Muslims -- it's not religion that has anything to do with this -- the U.S. has made enemies of probably more than half the world's population.
and the main issue here is Israel's policies. you decide to keep your focus on one side of the issue.
no one wants the demise of the U.S., only that they change their policies.
you see, reading and exploring issues is hardly "sticking the head in the sand".
ignoring the facts that are out there is.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 22, 2006 at 7:10 AM
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LeRoy, I agree. There's far more to this than simple economics.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on August 21, 2006 at 7:07 PM
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Sure Damon I'll take that reading list.
But keep in mind that there were a significant number of Muslim terrorist attacks that occurred prior to Bush taking office. They have a penchant for this sort of thing, you know.
I, too, have struggled with the loss of life in Iraq/Iraq war. I remember discussing this with my dad at the onset and asking if it was truly justified. Afghanistan -- yes. Iraq -- no.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on August 21, 2006 at 7:06 PM
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Great post
Janes, the only "self-Fullfilling prophecy" is the belief that this enemy can't be beat. The neo-marxist analysis that these atrocities are justified because of economic disparities is hilarious, sad, and dangerous. The motivations of people most times have nothing to do with economics, otherwise they would get to work.
posted by
LeRoyCoyote
on August 21, 2006 at 3:12 PM
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You Write...
...well here, but you are just re-hashing the Bush line that got him into this 'War on Terror' mess in the first place.
This 'clash of civilizations' nonsense is being revealed as such more and more by respected writers in weighty, well-researched books. I'll offer you a reading list if you like.
NO ONE with any insight into the underlying reality thinks that this is any more than inflamatory rhetoric that nicely plays into bush's agenda.
Unfortunately, it is also dangerous to continue to spout this sort of stuff, as it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Keep saying it often enough and loud enough, and that's what we'll end up getting!
Also, when you write "Armies of suicide bombers ought to tell us that their worldview matters more to them than life itself" it did make me think of an alternative -
Over 2,200 dead US soldiers ought to tell us that the Bush worldview matters more to him than (other peoples) life itself.
D
posted by
DamonLeigh
on August 21, 2006 at 9:36 AM
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Xenox, have you got your head buried in the sand again?
Have you not heard what the extremists have been saying about the US and Israel? About wanting to destroy the infidels and Jews? About wanting to annhilate? Wake up and smell the roses, buddy. The goal of Islam is the forceful submission of all peoples to Allah. Whether by peace or by force. Even those who consider themselves to be "moderate" often quietly support the work of the terrorists.
War does seem to be a part of the human condition, and currently the fronts appear to be Muslim instigated pretty much all over the world.
Sorry bud, but I'm thinking your politics elevator, at least on this subject, isn't quite making it to the top.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on August 21, 2006 at 8:36 AM
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and you exaggerate
"defeat us and annihilate us"
wrong again
9/11 was to make a statement -- the WTC was a continual target because it was where the WTO was headquartered -- developed nations that basically exploited the developing according to Bin Laden's perception.
we follow the Bush line and yours and we plunge ourselves into a morass from which we will never escape.
your and Bush's perceptions will ruin our country more than any outside enemy ever could.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 21, 2006 at 7:12 AM
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a little more factual history could serve us all well here.
odd that you have to portray these wars and a war between Islam and Christianity.
remember the Hundred Years' War?
the continuing war between England and Spain and the Spanish Armada.
Christian Europe fought among itself for centuries (during the same time certain Christians were fighting Moslems).
If you keep this in a broader perspective, you had to admit that war is a natural state of the human animal. Christians have fought Christians, Christians have fought Muslims: people of every religion: Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist (and those of tribal religions, american indians, African tribes -- SE Asia, etc. and people of no religion at all, I guess) have continually fought -- war is ubiquitous. don't place a label on it that really isn't there.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 21, 2006 at 7:08 AM
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