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Oh and yeah, a Very Happy 4th to YOU!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 7:45 AM
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Uh, Kooka, aren't we talking semantics here?
Christian influence vs falling apart after finding Christianity? Becoming Christian, so to speak, should lead to some sort of Christian influence.
For sure, though, it does seem that Rome was falling apart already when Constantine became a Christian; however, there are some who speculate that he did that merely for political gain more than true heart belief. I think there's a huge difference between doing something because it looks good or is expedient to one's politics vs doing something because a person has a heart's desire.
I think historians would probably say that Rome was already in the throes of decay when it became "Christian."
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 7:45 AM
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Janes
I did not say 'Rome fell due to Christian influence'. I said it fell part after it found Christianity, which is true. Basically Christianity does not solve the problems. Rome was going to fall no matter what since any empire that grows to such a size is domed. It just happens that Rome fell after Christianity became the religion of the time, since the truth is it is not the religion that makes the society. Christianity does not make any society succeed or fail. There are many other factors that are involved in success and failure of a society.
That was the point I was trying to make and I think you for helping me to make it.
Have a good 4th girl.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 4, 2006 at 7:22 AM
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Actually, Kooka, your comments could not be
further from the truth.
Rome fell apart thanks to its loss of morality, its violence, inflation, urban decay, political corruption, etc. Once it slid into a moral decay (similar to what we're experiencing in this country), it began to crumble from the inside. Some historians estimate at one point there were as many as 32,000 prostitutes in Rome. By the time the Goths and Visigoths and other germanic tribes arrived, there was such chaos it was easy to overtake. To say that Rome fell due to its Christian influence is such a ridiculous statement it's pathetic.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 7:08 AM
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Nautikos, I appreciate the reasonable response you give,
And I value your opinion. Thanks!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 6:59 AM
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Thank you Justi. I've never read Pearl Buck.
Perhaps during my next vacation . . . .
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 6:58 AM
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Thanks, Taps, for your encouragement.
I actually have more up my sleeve. My vacation gave me some extra time to READ . . . .
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 4, 2006 at 6:57 AM
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Justi
I am sorry to see you are still so filled with hate for everything that is not like you. I am still puzzled as to why you have such hate and why you are directing it towards me right now. The last few comments I left for you in your blogs a few weeks before you blocked me were very polite and I was trying to be friendly there by stating my beliefs without attacking yours.
You clearly do not understand freedom and what is and is not American.
I do feel sorry for you. A life based so much on hate can not be very enjoyable. I guess you will never feel the freedom of life I have where I live be a solid code of moral values that reflect building upon the positive aspects of life and trying to promote the best in everyone.
Just learn to not hate and maybe you will start to understand my comments and posts bette
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 3, 2006 at 5:00 PM
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Janes
Rome fell apart after it found Christianity, so to include them as an example of western civilization for this is really counter to your goals.
But I used the U.S.A. mostly because tit is clearly the focus of this ill-conceived concept, since all other countries that would be included in this 'Western Civilization' have actually been growing more and more away from Christianity (Due to the lack of separation of Church and State ironically enough) and have been progressing just fine with such influences.
Basically the only model that can be used for this idea is the U.S. and that is only once someone completely ignores the truth of what has made this country grow and become the influence it is.
In some ways the great growth of the Western Civilization that happened before Christianity took root was just as great as what we have seen in the last few hundred years. Great civilization grew without ever knowing the stories of the Bible. They lasted for great length of time for such a civilizations. We have not been around very long as a society compared to so many other non-Christian societies of the past. The present Western Civilization owes a lot to the non-Christian societies of the past. We could never have reached this point without what they had built and it is foolish ego to think otherwise.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 3, 2006 at 4:53 PM
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Janes
There could not be better proof of the great truth and value of all the material you are referencing in this article than the comments by Xeno and Son Kooky! They have no personal interest in the morals of any culture. They are only interested in putting anything down that will draw controversy. Their beings are portrayed here as controversial and against anything that is not communists or Islamic in its origin or basis of belief. They thrive on being anti American particular anti USA.
posted by
Justi
on July 3, 2006 at 12:07 PM
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Jane's Opinion
Thank you, thank you so very much for this great post. It is full of wonderful knowledge that many of us knew but had no research on it. He has done well with this. One only has to read Pearl Buck books to see the old Christian movement in China. Keep it up!
posted by
Justi
on July 3, 2006 at 11:53 AM
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JanesOpinion, What an interesting subject. Thanks for sharing. I greatly respect you for your patience and constancy in dealing with long-winded, oppositions to your posts.
posted by
TAPS.
on July 3, 2006 at 11:38 AM
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Jane,
I haven't read Rodney Stark's book yet, but when I do I am certain it will confirm for me what many of us have understood all along: the civilizing force of the Judaeo-Christian tradition. (That I am an agnostic is completely irrelevant here.) Almost exactly 100 years ago the eminent sociologist Max Weber made a related, though somewhat narrower point in his seminal work
The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism, which was in part a refutation of Marx.
posted by
Nautikos
on July 3, 2006 at 11:26 AM
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xenox et al, regarding numbers of Chinese Christians --
there are many guestimates, and the best one can do is likely a guestimate, thanks to the huge numbers who are secret Christians for fear of persecution. Here's one link, though regarding numbers:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15762-2004Nov26.html
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 2, 2006 at 4:08 PM
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Kooka, you mention "western civilization" and then all you discuss
is the U.S. and the importance of the separation of Church and State. If you knew history, you'd recall that there is far more to western civ than just the U.S. Prof Stark was writing about Western Civ as it pertains from Rome onwards. It's awfully egocentric to merely focus on the U.S. in your rebuttal.
But that said, I completely disagree with your opinions on the supposed helpfulness of church/state separation.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on July 2, 2006 at 4:05 PM
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Janes
The truth of what promoted and helped Western civilization grow has little if anything to do with Christianity. It was partial that the U.S. was able to get away the warring and such, which holds a society back greatly. over in the Middle east because you go to war with you neighbor every year or so you are not going to advice as a society very fast. With the U.S. being well away from anyone over seas being able to effectively wage war against us left us a great amount of room to grow.
Then you also have the separation of Church and State which promoted that growth greatly. By keeping the religious ideas away from the governing ideas we were able to promote a healthy society that was able to incorporate many differing views and beliefs. Seriously the U.S.A. would have fallen apart in no time flat if it were a truly Christian country that was based solely on Christian ideas. We have become so strong because of the diversity and acceptance of that diversity.
Beyond does this guy explain why China was able to grow so much faster than the Christian civilizations at one point? China and the eastern countries were very powerful and had great growth without Christianity being a part of it. Then of course things slowed down, as will happen in any society. but the truth is we would not be able to have advanced as we did if not for the advancements made by China and other non-Christian countries before hand. Also, how does he explain Mexico? A Christian country that is falling under and has not had our success, yet by this logic it should have done just as well as the U.S. due to the majority of the population being Christian. There were also many empires that fell after they switched to Christianity, such as the Roman empire. How is this explained?
The logic you present here leaves out a lot of factors, many more than I can state here. There is no one set of beliefs that have really been the backbone of it all, and never will be. It is much more complex than that and has roots in so many different non-Christian societies that just seem to get forgotten. Why? Because thanks to the freedom of religion and the separation of Church and State the Christian church here has been able to grow in ways no other country could have dreamed of and is now showing a level of Ego that is insulting to truth of what has built up this country.
posted by
kooka_lives
on July 1, 2006 at 3:12 PM
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facts not just argumentls
and one of those sites cited is a Christian Church -- right here.
the facts they present -- and the figures presented by the other sites are not Chinese propaganda -- what you need to do is cite facts and figures to support youir case and that of the author you quote.
I have presented facts and figures
you need to also if this is to be a valid discourse.
posted by
Xeno-x
on July 1, 2006 at 9:38 AM
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But in general, xenox, your comments did not surprise me in the least.
Same tiresome arguments, different day. But thanks, nonetheless, for stopping by.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 8:57 PM
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Re Central and South America, you raise a valid point.
Something Stark seems not to address. The Catholic Church in Central and South America has had much less success than Western European protestant Christianity. Huge difference. In fact, I think that Central/South America has been held back, even, thanks in great part to the policies of the Catholic church.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 8:57 PM
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By the way, regarding China,
I most DEFINITELY would NOT believe anything the "official" Chinese church makes available in the way of statistics and numbers of Christians. Talk about anti-Christian.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 8:55 PM
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Xenox, for calling yourself a Christian, you sure are, well,
anti-Christian.
I believe Prof Stark was pointing to the early Christian church when he talked about equality. Things changed during the Dark/Middle Ages. I know you love to fixate/pontificate on that time period, but fact is, it was different for the early church.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 8:54 PM
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and one more thing
the Christian Church of Central America doesn't believe in birth control -- girls are getting pregnant about 13 or 14 -- having babies at the rate of about one a year -- 90% of those die either at birth or during the first year -- and the girls live to be about 35 or maybe 45.
all because Christianity won't address the problem -- forbids birth control.
maybe you need to check out medieval Europe -- how young girls married back then -- I think you will be surprised.
statements such as those from the book do need to be placed in the honest crutiny of the light of day. -- that is, real facts,figures and events.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 30, 2006 at 3:43 PM
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so you don;'t consider the medieval church to be Christian?
the one that believed the earth was the center of the universe
many that advanced our society may have been Christians, but Christianity had nothing to do with the advancement of science.
and democracy and equality -- Christianity believes in a King. -- before ouir revolution, Christianity around the world believed in the "divine right of kings"
sorry -- another bubble burst
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 30, 2006 at 3:38 PM
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christianity didn't really give much freedomit took a lot for women to
even the semblance of equality they have -- Christians have opposed equality of women due to scriptural references like "let the women be keepers at home" , etc. -- and you will still hear thundered from the Christian pulpit that "the woman's place is in the home.
sorry to burst your fragile bubble there
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 30, 2006 at 3:33 PM
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western success is built upon
corporate greed and theft
the actions of corporate America from its nceptionhave been very ANTI CHRISTIAN
and as for China -- you;'ve got 10% of the population as being Christian
hold on
At a January Religious Affairs Bureau (RAB, the government body responsible for oversight of religions) conference, delegates were told the number of Protestants in China was 25 million. A leaked report from China's security organization -- the Public Security Bureau (PSB) -- put the total at 35 million.
this from
click here for site Detailed government statistics on religious adherents in China were revealed at the recent national RAB conference convened in Beijing. The RAB delegates were reportedly given the following figures:
Buddhists -- 150 million
Daoists -- 5.5 million
Muslims -- 11 million
Protestants -- 25 million
Catholics -- 3.2 million
this from a Christian web site
now --
| Country | Number
of Buddhists |
|---|
| China | 102,000,000 |
Communist laws banning most religion and recent rapid changes introducing increasing openness make accurate estimates difficult to obtain. Recent figures for the number of "Chinese religionists" include 220 and 225 million. Barrett (
World Christian Encyclopedia, 2001) classified 384,806,732 "Chinese folk-religionists," 6,298,597 "Confucianists" and 2,654,514 "Taoists," or about 394 million total.
this from Adherents.com
seems like maybe the 100 m figure you cited for Christians might be a bit too hopeful.
posted by
Xeno-x
on June 30, 2006 at 3:30 PM
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ariel70, I appreciate very much your honesty and transparency.
You're right about that death wish. Our schools (and society in general) are bending over backwards to avoid anything hinting of Judeo-Christianity, and in the process, civilization is losing its soul.
Thanks to you and RAME for stopping by!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 2:26 PM
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Thanks RAME!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on June 30, 2006 at 2:24 PM
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Janes
This is so self-evident as barely to need stating, and yet it a profound truth which almost everyone, Christian and atheist alike, either overlooks or is unaware of.
Or we are deliberately dissuaded from thinking along those lines, 'cos it might just offend a Muslim or two, see? And that would never do, would it?
So we have to go on swallowing the line that all cultures are equal, at the expense of incurring further contempt from Muslima and others, because we don't even have the guts to stand up for our own beliefs and cultures. We in the west have a cultural death wish, and the death of our Judaeo-Christian cultures will occur real soon.
And this is from an atheist.
posted by
ariel70
on June 30, 2006 at 12:29 PM
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JanesOpinion,
Very intersting! Great post.
posted by
RAME
on June 30, 2006 at 12:11 PM
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