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actually what have we learned here
Paul considers men having sex with men as being "near" -- or aside -- or maybe offline from the natural, the word "para" being used, rather than "against", which the KJV interpreters decided on -- "natural" in this case refers more to observed behavior of animals.

one thing we have learned is that here, as in many places, our interpretation of scriptures is filtered through 16th Century Anglican perceptions and beliefs whose ideas and words were not necessarily those of the original writers.

the other is that Paul was not as adamantly against homosexuality as certain want to believe.  He was describing a society -- the Roman, where things were a lot different than they are now.

again, you cannot take descriptions of a first century society and apply them to our 21st century world.

how many times must this be repeated.

seems like an infinite number.

posted by Xeno-x on June 20, 2006 at 4:13 PM | link to this | reply

will you repost it?

posted by Xeno-x on June 20, 2006 at 4:08 PM | link to this | reply

The answer is no, Xeno-x, because we have come to find that
homosexuality and hermaphroditism stems from the genetic.  The men who wrote the bible, being concerned with their given populations, reflected only what they deemed to be the natural order of things and a way of keeping the population growing, or at least replenishing itself;  therefore;  homosexuality had to be a sin.  And only in homosexuality will you find the rare case of adopted behavior.   Hermaphrodites have both organs, so they may also have a tough time adjusting to one sex or the other.  I wrote on this same subject a year ago (not the sinning part, but whether it was"natural" or not), replying to a question that blackcat30 had made.  Excellent, thought-provoking post.

posted by saul_relative on June 20, 2006 at 4:05 PM | link to this | reply

Romans 1:27 NOPEACE
the word KJV translates as agains is

para {par-ah'}
TDNT ReferenceRoot Word
TDNT - 5:727,771 a root word
Part of Speech
prep
Outline of Biblical Usage

1) from, of at, by, besides, near

 the word, para is used quite often to mean besides -- like parathyroid glands -- these are glands around the thyroid gland, from which comes the disease, pseudopseudohypoparathyroidism.  nothing against there -- but to the side -- so these aactions are sort of not exactly in line with "nature", that is,   "the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts:"

other commentaries mention that this "nature" is akin to the sexuality common to anomals (observed) -- so when we think of not being exactly in line with nature, we are talking about the observed sexual activities of the dog lying next to you, a long, yellow-haired, irish setter or retreiver type dog.

posted by Xeno-x on June 20, 2006 at 12:10 PM | link to this | reply

leviticus NOPEACE
do you still want to use thatr verse?

is it eternal truth because it's in leviticus?

and do you refuse to eat pork?  that's in Leviticus

and to you keep the Passover?  that's in Leviticus.

my take on this -- if you use one passage in leviticus, you have to use it all.

don't you agree?  -- or are there just certain passages valid and the rest invalid -- and why is the rest invalid when the one is valid?

posted by Xeno-x on June 20, 2006 at 11:58 AM | link to this | reply

NOPEACE
HERMAPHRODITES HAVE BOTH MEN'S AND WOMEN'S ORGANS --PER THE PHOTOGRAPH.

so they sin?  haqving been born both man and woman in physical appearance, having both male and female genitals?

we aren't talking transexuals here.

posted by Xeno-x on June 20, 2006 at 11:55 AM | link to this | reply

Xeno

I would venture to say yes, homosexuals and hermaphrodites are sinners.  Of course we are all sinners because of the "Actions" we take. 

Homosexuals are sinners because of the actions they take.  Although they may have desires to commit a homosexual act, they do not commit the sin until they actually have intercourse with someone of the same sex.

Leviticus 18:22 (KJV): "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind it is abomination."

Romans 1:27 (KJV): "...the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet."

Hermaphrodites are sinners because of their actions.  Although they may feel as if they are men trapped in womens bodies or women trapped in mens bodies, they commit the sin when they alter the sex in which God created them to be.  Through sex change surgeries, hormone supplements etc to change the look of their bodies.

In Genesis, God gave man a commandment that said, "Go forth and multiple."  A man and a man can not multiply among themselves whether one has a sex change and becomes a woman or not.  Nor can two women multiply and have children, it is against the nature of God and against the purpose of which he created that woman and that man for.

Sin is sin by the actions that people take not because of the way they feel.

posted by NOPEACE on June 20, 2006 at 9:35 AM | link to this | reply