Comments on LET'S TALK ABOUT FRANCE

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I have seen people live in worse conditions than the French. South America, Russia, Mexico, Columbia, but they do not burn cities or cars or destroy what their host country has provided for them. I head a French police officers was fired on or was shot, that is horrible, and the French need to put their foot down. I also understand it took Charic 9 days to respond to the issue. France is a beauitful country, Paris a beautiful city, why on earth would the French allow these punks to burn it is beyond my ability to understand. I hope you are safe and that things will improve for you.

posted by Offy on November 13, 2005 at 7:13 PM | link to this | reply

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/berg_killing.zip

posted by cantey_1975 on November 13, 2005 at 6:37 PM | link to this | reply

Oh

and that goes for your family as well.

posted by cantey_1975 on November 13, 2005 at 6:32 PM | link to this | reply

Damon

Why dont you just go out in the backyard and blow your brains out. That would be a much more painless way to die as opposed to having your head sawed off of your shoulders as the blood curdles in your windpipe.

posted by cantey_1975 on November 13, 2005 at 6:30 PM | link to this | reply

Damon, About France, I see the car burnings as a diversion to the real

action.  North Africans are breeding a generation of terrorists in France and Spain that Europe will be dealing with for the next half century.  This is just the start of what corrupt politicians have allowed by default, for decades, while collecting blowjobs, and kickbacks from the Oil-4-Food program. 

posted by kingmi on November 13, 2005 at 8:17 AM | link to this | reply

DamonLeigh

What perfect timing. I just saw a news report that Al Queda took responsibility for the London subway bombings and issued a "fatwah" against your Queen and country (England). They called Queen Elizabeth a "severe enemy of Islam" along with the Church of England, and threatened moderate Muslims in England who are trying to integrate into your society.

Have you ever seen that T-shirt that says "DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS"...... well, those Muslims in Europe all need to wear one. Better get that garden-hose ready soon!!

posted by GoldenMean on November 13, 2005 at 7:27 AM | link to this | reply

Dylan

Thanks for the recognition, but I meant to bring more than traditional moral clarity to this discussion. I think the widespread riots in France and even now spread to other countries like Germany and Belgium, are just the latest skirmish in the Islamic war on the rest of the world. It will get worse, because so many people in the West (wicked infidels, all) refuse to see it. What they refuse to see, they cannot properly handle or oppose. The Islamic element is at least as important here as the poverty/injustice element. Islamic people are generally quicker to resort to violence. Their history and religious doctrine is full of violence.

I am not familiar with the history of this situation in France, but it is obvious that the French let a large population of Muslim immigrants/refugees into their country, without understanding the dangers of this. Muslims do not integrate well into other non-Muslim societies. They tend to stay apart, and view themselves as superior to all other religions/cultures. If you study the history and doctrines of Islam, this should become obvious. I have been reading a lot on this subject lately, and I think I will do a new post on it in my "Mohammed" blog, instead of hijacking DamonLeigh's blog here. Sorry about that, DL!

posted by GoldenMean on November 12, 2005 at 10:43 PM | link to this | reply

Damon, there have been people in far worse positions but did not destroy

other people's property because of it.  If you are giving a rationale legitimzing their behavior, then I'm very surprised.  

Anger and desperation can lead to good choice in life as well, not as easily perhaps but it is possible.  America and human history is built on such success life stories, from people who have come from far worse conditions than those of France.  I just heard one such story last night at my dinner table from a 12th grade Korean boy.

I was highly encouraged by what he told me but feel sick after reading what you wrote.  Maybe it's just the pizza.

Cheers!

Sean Gray

posted by itisdone on November 12, 2005 at 3:30 PM | link to this | reply

Golden Mean as usual brings traditional moral clarity to the discussion.

Which is important. But as I can never stop harping on, this form of moral clarity does not treat everyone equally in practice. There may be no justification for the rioters' acts. I agree that there is none. But the point is, many of those who will condemn these rioters would probably do the same thing, if they were in the rioters' shoes. They will never have to face that fact, because they will never be made to live in such deplorable conditions.

What's important here is not that acts of violence in protest are justified. They are not. But if society wants to prevent them, it has to attack not only the persons involved, but the conditions that make such acts seem appealing. If the French gov. is going to let these people in (and I think they should) they should make citizenship or at least some form of visa, employment, and welfare benefits available to them. They should not make people live in conditions that make theft seem more rewarding than honest work. The thiefs and rioters bear responsibility for their actions, but so does French society. So do all wealthy democratic countries.

We bear more responsibility because we have greater resources, not just a few of which are the result of exploitation of countries in the "developing world" such as those in Africa. France has a deplorable legacy in that continent, just as the U.S. has. We may not have lived when that legacy was made, but we are still responsible for dealing with its after-effects. Western corporations - and the Western governments that support them -  have had a major role in propping up the very dictatorships that have oppressed people and driven them out of their homes in African countries. So we're not just talking about bad stuff done in the past. The suffering caused by rich, powerful countries is just as significant as the suffering caused by these rioters. But unless big change is made, only the rioters will be held truly accountable, because it's the rich and powerful who make and enforce the laws.  

posted by Dylan24 on November 12, 2005 at 8:08 AM | link to this | reply

As to the facts of the case

Does anyone, especially the rioters' apologists, know WHY the Islamic youths were fleeing from the police? Police generally do not chase people without a reason. And does anyone care that the stupid kids killed THEMSELVES, by trespassing into a fenced power station and touching objects of extremely high voltage? If the rioters wanted sympathy for their cause, they should have picked a better reason than stupidity to start their immoral destruction.

But then, on second thought, it is a perfect fit. Stupid kids, stupid self-destruction, stupid destruction of society. But DamonLeigh will no doubt continue to argue valiantly to justify this mass stupidity.

posted by GoldenMean on November 12, 2005 at 7:07 AM | link to this | reply

DL, Saul is right

Damon, your willingness to justify or excuse criminal acts is disgusting. But let me respond to the solution of shooting the rioters when they are caught in the act of burning a car. The rioters are destroying not just a car, but thousands of cars and buildings, which will cripple the economy of an entire nation. This calls for extreme measures by French police, but don't worry, the wimps will never do what really needs to be done. Personally, I would definitely threaten to shoot anyone I caught trying to burn my car in America, and if they continued I would shoot, not to kill but to STOP, and so would most gunowners in America..... THAT is why this will not happen on any large scale in America.

On the other hand, in England, you enlightened socialists have disarmed your people, and you have a huge population of Islamic extremists, so when this travelling Islamic riot comes to your neighborhood, as it will someday, you had better have your garden-hose ready to put out your burning car, or house, or flat. But you can tell the rioters how much you understand their pathetic plight, join them in their righteous outrage, and maybe they won't burn your car. Or maybe they will. Because you are a filthy unbeliever, an infidel. That is something that you and I have in common.

Most of the rioters are said to be young Islamics, NOT the desperate parents and older workers as you claim. Parents have been reported as begging their kids to stop this madness. They are punks, spurred on by the anti-Western propaganda preached in many mosques. The young are always the most receptive to doctrines of violence and vengeance. To them, you and I are infidels, inferior human beings, whose property can be destroyed at will. Extremist Muslims are just itching to impose their superiority upon us infidels. There is this element in the riots. If you cannot see that, then you cannot see beyond the end of your own nose.

You say that these rioters are dangerous. That is true, and the French can stop the riots only if they become MORE dangerous. People who resort to violence first and without just cause, can generally be stopped only with reciprocating violence. But the French will probably just use curfews and searches to put on a good show, and let the rioters exhaust themselves after burning a thousand more cars and buildings.

To answer your last question, where you ask us to be honest, after your heart-rending scenario of poverty and injustice, this is my answer. I would NEVER burn someone else's car for the reasons you mention. NEVER. It would simply not be an option. Moral principle limits a person's response to social injustice. Social injustice is never a valid reason to commit crimes against specific persons. I would starve to death before I burned another person's car, whether they are known to me or a stranger. Such criminal behavior (burning cars and buildings) only reflects upon the poor judgment and immorality of the criminal.

posted by GoldenMean on November 12, 2005 at 6:46 AM | link to this | reply

Understandable, DamonLeigh, but still inexcusable. The violence, I mean.

Committing crimes to survive is another thing altogether. Much like the rioting in Toledo, Ohio, last month, each individual makes a conscious choice to be among the mob and submit to mob rule. Yet unlike the Toledo riot, which was born of opportunists and assininity, these French youths sem to be somewhat justified. I can understand the desperation born of social degradation and socioeconomic frustrations, for they are the kindling of revolutionary fires. But this French episode is merely an ineffectual backlash of the disaffected and dispossessed, not an organized cause. For the social change to occur, power must be wielded that causes political change. Without organization, this unrest will leave the downtrodden lower classes no better off than before, many of them now with criminal records as well. Just to vent en masse.

posted by saul_relative on November 11, 2005 at 12:59 PM | link to this | reply

it is not good to live in France right now...

economically, socially, politically and financially...this country sucks...not only are ppl incompetent here, most of the time, but the French government's policy will lead us to a real disaster!

posted by Marshallengraved on November 11, 2005 at 10:02 AM | link to this | reply

Yeah I'd be angry.

I didn't know that stuff about French gov policies.

In some ways the French are as bad as the good old U.S. of A.! (Our oldest ally) 

posted by Dylan24 on November 10, 2005 at 7:17 PM | link to this | reply

Cheers...

LJJ!

Just about to add a bit.

D

posted by DamonLeigh on November 10, 2005 at 1:37 PM | link to this | reply

Cheers...

LJJ!

posted by DamonLeigh on November 10, 2005 at 1:36 PM | link to this | reply

Neatly put.

posted by longjohnjohn on November 10, 2005 at 7:03 AM | link to this | reply