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Never blog when you have cramps
Cabal, that was one thought I actually had. I really just wanted to say that I felt it's past time that qwe don't use artificial distinctions. I was also tired of Jesus being depicted as some sorta uber image for the Christian Right which has more in keeping with hitler than piety.
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 21, 2003 at 8:27 PM
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Nice piece.
The comments and Bible thumping moved the conversation away from the essence of what you said; that Jesus, the Man, through what he preached, would certainly have approved of gays. If the statistics hold true, that is that one in ten is gay or bi, then at least one disciple certainly had those feelings. Why would he be hanging out with twelve other men in robes otherwise? 
posted by
Cabal
on July 21, 2003 at 6:25 PM
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Dressing up the bible belt
msaries delightful to read your comments as always :-) The bible belt is full of wonderful people. The area just has a closed minded image. I think it needs a leather corset and some nipple clamps!
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 21, 2003 at 7:29 AM
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Sitting under a tree reading Bronte
Welcome to the Darke spaces WWM and thanks for reading and contributing! I agree with your comments. It has been a source of constant vexiatiobn for me that we cannot see the simple inherent wisdom in respecting anyone's rights. As a the Wiccan reed suggests; "Do what you will, lest thee harm none."
Thanks again Wonky :-) PS: I'll look up those hetrosexual prohibits :-)
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 21, 2003 at 7:27 AM
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It says so in that book over there...
Dearest Pecan; thanks for the praise. Also thanks for pointing out the narrowness of some minds. However always remember that the right to discourse is guaranteed to us and that only in exercising it do we gain our full measure of freedom.
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 21, 2003 at 7:24 AM
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You wrote a very powerful post and I agree with what you said.
I think any two people who love each other and want to spend their lives together--consenting adults--should have that right. I live in the "Bible Belt", so I'm risking hell and damnation as I'm writing this. 
posted by
msaries
on July 21, 2003 at 7:06 AM
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I find it sad...
...that in a country supposedly founded on religious freedom, so many still take that to mean the right to practice any "Christian" religion, rather than what it actually means--any religion, period. Christianity is not the only religion, and certainly not the ony religion with a moral core. When Americans complain about prayer being taken out of the classroom, they only mean Christian prayer and do not take into account there may be non-Christians in the class. Even the idea of Christian prayer varies from sect to sect! I know many "Christians" who sneer at Catholics, for example. It's not as simply as some would make it out to be. Just as the "moral decline" of our country cannot be explained simply as the result of prayer being taken out of schools. Nothing is that black and white.
That said, I enjoyed your post, RavenDarke. Interestingly, there are far more sanctions against wrongful heterosexual acts than homosexual ones in the Bible. Just an observation...
Peace.
posted by
WonkyWordsMistress
on July 21, 2003 at 7:01 AM
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Brava My Raven
Great post. I've read the comments in response to it. And of course, those attacking you are bringing up the same arguments that have no basis in scripture. Sigh. Small minds are frightening.
posted by
CatLadyintheAttic
on July 21, 2003 at 6:05 AM
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Checking out the index
Ah the oldest dodge since "rich man's war, poor man's fight." Morality does not come exclusively fromany one set of words. All the varying Crusades were also spawned by the bible; does this give them 'moral' authority Poet?
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 21, 2003 at 5:57 AM
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RAVENDARKE - I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THERE IS NO MORAL AUTHORITY IN THE U.S
Why? Because in 1963, thanks to Madlyn Murray O Hare, the Bible and Prayer were taken out of our public schools, and thus out of the fabric of our soceity. If we don't turn to the Bible as our supreme authority, then where do we turn, to ourselves, Jean Sarte called that "dreadful freedom" and again, he wrote from such there is no exit!
posted by
MountainClimber57
on July 20, 2003 at 11:12 PM
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moral decay
Poet I will concede you one point. There is a total lack of moral authority in the US right now. Bush is immoral and quite frankly the RC church in the US functions more like a hate organization. I am not usually so caustic and I do apologize for peeling paint but hypocrisy always bakes my bra bunch. Poet thanks for this intresting contribution. Oh and ues, to answer your question I have read both testaments. As I stated earlier in these comments; I was not thinking of Jesus's literal actions butt he feelings in his heart at the time.
Raven Dark
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 10:33 PM
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RAVENDARKE, I AM NOT ONE TO SPEAK FOR JESUS, BUT IF YOU BELIEVE THE BIBLE
To be true, and read the Bible both Old and New Testaments, then your conclusion is invalid. As far as there not being a moral authority, that too is wrong. Jean Sarte the founder of existentialism stated that humans have the right to do what they want to do, when they want to, and how they want to, and then he wrote the book - No Exit which simply stated is that lives without moral authority sooner or places a society at a dead end with no exit, but to return to that which has stood the test of time, and if you look at our world and society today, that is exactly where we are at.
posted by
MountainClimber57
on July 20, 2003 at 10:03 PM
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Conclusions at the mercy of rape
Honeykat and anyone else who reads this comment: A very interesting point. During my recovey from being assaulted I went through a number of the standard reactions, anger and denial where the top two with self loathing and deep depression taking up the '6'. Somehow though I learned a valuable if hard lesson. While I personally cannot as of yet forgive my attacker; I can and have given it up to God. His fate is in the hands of the Divine. Now all I am doing is living the life I have left.
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 9:53 PM
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God can heal your broken heartedness! Don't let one act of violence cloud your judgement!
Rape is wrong! Can you forgive ?it will be along road to recovery! That free will ! We need people to get saved! Let the Lord's light shine so that people may see it! If people turn from their evil ways, we would have less murder, rape, incest! We must tell them this is wrong. Will one thing lead to another! God wants us to promote his way of living!I know it seems like honeykat's World to some! In my house is Love and Love of the truth. I wish that people could see the World as I see it! In perfect harmony with God. Is it so wrong to Love God in his perfect wisdom? I pray the hurt and sorrow of this event be far from you and any guilt that the devil has laid on you! You should fight him harder! You can be an instrument to God! Don't let the devil win!
posted by
honeykat4
on July 20, 2003 at 8:47 PM
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Sunday in the park with Jesus and Honeykat
Yes Honeykat in a matter of speaking that is what happened. I have been asked to take on a position within my faith community that would indirectly deal with this issue. I also believe personally that it's time to stop artificial discriminations. I think being raped caused that one.
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 8:22 PM
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Did the Gay issue come up with the pastor? Is what he said getting you thinking?
posted by
honeykat4
on July 20, 2003 at 8:18 PM
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Biblically speaking
Honeykat, I'm not sure iam asaying that you can't believe the bible. I think it's more about context. My pastor got me thinking on this when he challenged me to consider what Jesus would do in my personal situation. I think like faith itself(which I've explored in Darke Faiths) the bible is something each individual forms a deeply personal relationship with.
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 8:14 PM
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I am glad you liked my observation? What about God never changes!
I am just thinking if you can't believe the whole bible what good is it?
posted by
honeykat4
on July 20, 2003 at 8:10 PM
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hmmm
Peewee that is an intresting analysis that I am glad you brought up. Watch this space for my answer to your intriguing thought. Thanks for tuning in and commenting!
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 8:06 PM
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from the no where into...
Honeykat I was not referring to the literal intrepretation of his actions but the message inherent therein. As for the cultural rules of 2000 years ago any sane mind has to agree taht things where backward at best. If we can't change wit hthe times then we are at best museum exhibits not thinking beings. Still I respect your opinion and thank you for reading!
Raven Darke
posted by
RavenDarke
on July 20, 2003 at 8:04 PM
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What are you trying to say " Gay " is ok? What about Go and Sin no more!
Why would Jesus talk to the woman at the well or The woman getting stoned for adultery? If marriage is no big deal? I'm Gay and I'm Ok! I am so Happy Jesus told the people to turn from thier sin! The moneychangers he chased them away from the temple! Why because they were bargaining on the Sabbath! They were breaking a commandment!
posted by
honeykat4
on July 20, 2003 at 7:55 PM
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Comment for RavenDarke from Pewee
Souls are asexual - neither male nor female. It is how one chooses to manifest on this earth that makes him or her male or female. We have learned an associative reaction to certain behaviors, and human society has dictated rules based upon physical properties. However, the true you, me and everyone else is Spirit - neither male nor female. From that standpoint, I guess you are right.
Pewee
posted by
Pewee
on July 20, 2003 at 7:53 PM
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