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Dylan
We also say: "See you at the end of the week." But that's another matter.
posted by
Limey
on
June 8, 2005
at
2:34 AM
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reply
Limey:
thank you for your
in-depth responses (LOL). I'll consider them more at the week
end. (I believe Brits emphasize the second syllable in weekend, while we emphasize the first. Your way makes more sense, for every day is a week day, but not every day is a week
end day.)
posted by
Dylan24
on
June 7, 2005
at
7:06 PM
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reply
Smartdog
I'm not suggesting for a moment that language should be set in stone.
However, to make sense of it some basic rules are essential. And this is the reason newspapers, broadcast stations, news agencies and publishing houses produce their own style books.
As you're someone who is extremely good at stringing words together, I'm sure you agree.
posted by
Limey
on
June 7, 2005
at
2:27 PM
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reply
Come now...
Limey,
Rules are not simply ignored. They are tested, stretched and adapted to meet the needs of people trying to communicate with each other; both in speech and written language. Certainly it would be more convenient if every human being on the planet used the same rules to write the same words for ever and ever. But the only way that’s going to happen is if we all become zombies (which I’m going to assume you don’t prefer to humanity’s current situation).
I am the first person to chastise a coworker for sending a poorly written, undecipherable email, But I also understand that changes, even to the most fundamental aspects of language, are completely natural, and often facilitate communication between disparate groups of people. Deriding those changes because they fly in the face of convention is simply absurd. Where would human evolution stand had we not challenged the past assumptions and rules of science, politics, philosophy and language. You say ‘cop out’ I say inevitable progress.
Personally I loathe ebonics, but I can’t help be a little turned on by the word bootylicious. And by the way, most linguists will tell you that ‘aks’ was the proper way to say ‘ask’ in Old and Middle English.
(please note the thoughtful use of single quotation marks so as not to offend)
Whatever happens to the English language, I am hopeful that it will benefit the majority of its speakers. So weep not my fellow from across the pond, everything will be ok.
posted by
smartdog_670
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:25 PM
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reply
Smartdog
Please see my notes to Ms N Dependence.
PS The curreent situation's enough to make anyone weep!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
4:52 PM
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reply
Ms N Dependence
Ebonics has crept in here - a direct result of cheap American films and TV shows.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
4:41 PM
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reply
Limey
I have been fighting this battle since -well before ebonics became our second language.
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
June 6, 2005
at
4:29 PM
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reply
Ms N Dependence
This is an uphill struggle at times, so thanks for your support. Saying English is evolving and the basic rules can be ignored is the usual cop-out, of course!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
4:25 PM
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reply
Limey
The average person does not understand that grammar rules are just that - rules. They were created when the various languages were evolving into a more "universal" tongue. With French, Spanish, Italian, Greek, - all the romance languages... if you don't follow the rules - you are not understood. We do not - apparently care to be understood. In fact - Americans are much like petulant children - so misunderstood!
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:58 AM
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reply
Fact
I understand your point of view but I don't accept it - nor do thousands of newspapers in your country and mine.
They need to retain their readers and one of the many ways they do this is by sticking to sound basic rules.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:53 AM
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reply
Limey
True dat ; ) LOL!
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:48 AM
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reply
Ms N Dependence
Speech is one thing - the written word is quite another!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:46 AM
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reply
Hiram
See below.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:45 AM
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reply
Thanks for the explanation. I shall always think of you on election day!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:45 AM
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reply
reni
That's what we say. However, what we write is sometimes very different.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
8:40 AM
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reply
Dylan
No comment - see below!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
7:32 AM
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reply
Dyland
Please ignore the typos and cock-ups in my last comment.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
7:30 AM
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reply
Limey -
OMG, FWIW have u seen how Brit kids write while IMing? IDK why you don't realize that English is not a pure language. You are talking nonsense IMHO. (BFO) And yes I have intentionally written as crappy as possible. Am dissssappointed it could not be even worse...
TTFN (yeah you probably know the last one from all of those Pooh books you love)
posted by
FactorFiction
on
June 6, 2005
at
6:16 AM
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reply
You are correct Limey...
But as Americans we have the Freedom to butcher our Speech!
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
June 6, 2005
at
6:13 AM
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reply
RAME
Do keep up! (See Dylan's comment). Anyway, well spotted.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
6:00 AM
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reply
kingmi
How should I take that - in the English sense? Cheeky!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
5:59 AM
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reply
Ms N Dependence
... there would be no need for such guides!
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
5:58 AM
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reply
Dylan
I hope this shed some light on the matter.
Responses: (Anything left unresponded to means I agree with you.)
"The military, used as a noun, is nearly always better put as the army. Gubernatorial is an ugly word that can almost always be avoided."
In the United States, the Army is just one branch of the military.
* I think that's accepted. Here, journalists are being called on to be precise - if it's the army, say so.
"Do not figure out if you can work out."
In the U.S., we use "work out" to mean exercise, so "figure out" is useful to mean solve a problem.
*It's not always necessary to use figures to solve a problem!
"Choose tenses according to British usage, too. In particular, do not fight shy—as Americans often do—of the perfect tense, especially where no date or time is given. Thus Mr Bush has woken up to the danger is preferable to Mr Bush woke up to the danger, unless you can add last week or when he heard the explosion."
For this one, I have to post it even though I agree, because it's too important to leave unemphasized. Very good point!
*Agreed.
"They rest from their labours at weekends, not on them and during the week their children are at school, not in it."
Weekends are not a place, so I don't see how "at" serves better than "on." Actually, "during" would be the most accurate.
*Think in terms of time - at 2pm, at the moment.
The people in them, and on buses, are passengers, not riders. Cars are hired, not rented...In Britain, though cattle and pigs may be raised, children are (or should be) brought up."
"Riders" actually seems preferable if you want to avoid polysyllabic words; obviously it means the same thing as "passengers" and, since they are indeed riding, is accurate. And what's the difference between "raised" and "brought up"; indeed, don't they mean exactly the same thing? And again, "raised" saves a syllable.
*Passengers travel in something, not on it. And you may have noticed there's a difference people animals and people - hence the rule "brought up"/"raised" rule.
"Make a deep study or even a study in depth, but not an in-depth study."
I don't see the difference.
*Here journalists are being encouraged to avoid cliche. (Sorry, I can't do the accent on this machine). For some reason studies are unnecessarily "in-depth".
"On-site inspections are allowed, but not in-flight entertainment."
Why not? It distinguishes between ordinary entertainment and that which you enjoy on an airplane (or is is aeroplane?)
*I'll get back to you!
"You may program a computer but in all other contexts the word is programme."
I think it's just a difference in spelling. Kind of like "color" instead of "colour," which saves a letter.
*This rule is meant to acknowledge America's dominance of the internet.
posted by
Limey
on
June 6, 2005
at
5:55 AM
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reply
I say to-ma-to, you say to-mah-to.
posted by
Renigade
on
June 5, 2005
at
10:49 PM
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reply
Stop crying and get over it
Limey,
Spellings and meanings change over time for even the most rudimentary words. It’s called the evolution of a language - and no, we're not going to stop. Thank God we have different idioms than you Brits; otherwise we’d all be bloody limeys! Or is it limies.
Sometimes the process is ugly and maybe even profane, but the main purpose of language is to communicate – not to look pretty. And as cultures mix and match, come together and break apart, language evolves to suit the times and people using it.
After all, English itself is just Latin and German mashed together.
So stop dissin’ and just chill dude. And, like, you should like totally let it go. K?
posted by
smartdog_670
on
June 5, 2005
at
9:39 PM
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reply
Skyrocket?
The last time I heard that was in the song Afternoon Delight. I do agree about the"head the company, not to head it up". That just sounds ugly to me. Gubernatorial is a word that is brought out just for elections. It's just there for the news people to show they know big words.
Also, there really was a Hiram Turnipseed.
posted by
mikea18
on
June 5, 2005
at
7:31 PM
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reply
RAME,
in Limey's defense, they spell it labour in the U.K., and it was the Americans that changed their spelling to the word without the u. I'm glad they did so, but there is nothing improper in Limey's spelling.
posted by
Dylan24
on
June 5, 2005
at
7:18 PM
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reply
Limey,
How 'bout we learn to talk right when you learn how to spell? You know, it's labor, not labour, yada, yada, yada.
posted by
RAME
on
June 5, 2005
at
12:01 PM
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reply
Limey, goddamn glad to meet you. You got spunk, boy! Har har!
posted by
kingmi
on
June 5, 2005
at
11:19 AM
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reply
Limey
If students were required to conduct themselves in the English classroom as they are in their French or Spanish classroom...
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
June 5, 2005
at
10:53 AM
| |
reply
Responses: (Anything left unresponded to means I agree with you.)
"The military, used as a noun, is nearly always better put as the army. Gubernatorial is an ugly word that can almost always be avoided."
In the United States, the Army is just one branch of the military.
"Do not figure out if you can work out."
In the U.S., we use "work out" to mean exercise, so "figure out" is useful to mean solve a problem.
"Choose tenses according to British usage, too. In particular, do not fight shy—as Americans often do—of the perfect tense, especially where no date or time is given. Thus Mr Bush has woken up to the danger is preferable to Mr Bush woke up to the danger, unless you can add last week or when he heard the explosion."
For this one, I have to post it even though I agree, because it's too important to leave unemphasized. Very good point!
"They rest from their labours at weekends, not on them and during the week their children are at school, not in it."
Weekends are not a place, so I don't see how "at" serves better than "on." Actually, "during" would be the most accurate.
The people in them, and on buses, are passengers, not riders. Cars are hired, not rented...In Britain, though cattle and pigs may be raised, children are (or should be) brought up."
"Riders" actually seems preferable if you want to avoid polysyllabic words; obviously it means the same thing as "passengers" and, since they are indeed riding, is accurate. And what's the difference between "raised" and "brought up"; indeed, don't they mean exactly the same thing? And again, "raised" saves a syllable.
"Make a deep study or even a study in depth, but not an in-depth study."
I don't see the difference.
"On-site inspections are allowed, but not in-flight entertainment."
Why not? It distinguishes between ordinary entertainment and that which you enjoy on an airplane (or is is aeroplane?)
"You may program a computer but in all other contexts the word is programme."
I think it's just a difference in spelling. Kind of like "color" instead of "colour," which saves a letter.
posted by
Dylan24
on
June 5, 2005
at
10:41 AM
| |
reply
Not necessary
Well, I knew this already - but then I'm Belgian, not American. I quite agree: Americans violate English.
Nickie
posted by
Nickie-Fleming
on
June 5, 2005
at
10:39 AM
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reply
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