Go to Don't you just hate Americans?
- Add a comment
- Go to THEY SENT THE FIRST MAN TO THE MOON - BUT CAN'T TEACH EVOLUTION!
Bunny:
your words on Mrs. Bush were amusing and reminded me of a column by Maureen Dowd of The New York Times in which she quoted Mrs. Bush's words many years ago in response to George's grandmother's question about what she liked to do. Mrs. Bush, according to Ms. Dowd, said: "I read, I smoke, and I admire." I would not be surprised to learn Mrs. Bush is a more complicated person than her public persona indicates.
posted by
Dylan24
on
May 28, 2005
at
6:14 AM
| |
reply
Painter
Thanks. Your comment has helped fill in the picture for me.
posted by
Limey
on
May 27, 2005
at
4:10 PM
| |
reply
I support
teaching both evolution and the various creationist stories in the interest of fairness. I believe that once all views are aired and discussed, the validity of evolution will be much plainer.
most every science uses evolution as a base -- clear to genetics --
and I contend that evolution clears up many mysteries of human behavior.
If we refuse to accept this, then we will never solve socio-cultural problems that rise from human behavior that has been inherited from our ape ancestors (it is obvious and I have posted on it in GOD AS THE UNHIVERSE AS AN ORGANISM).
posted by
Xeno-x
on
May 27, 2005
at
3:08 PM
| |
reply
Zen
A very similar situation existed in Germany some 70 years ago. And we all know what that led to.
posted by
Limey
on
May 27, 2005
at
2:55 PM
| |
reply
MysticGamekeeper
I'd dearly like to know.
posted by
Limey
on
May 27, 2005
at
2:49 PM
| |
reply
To " I often Marvel "
I often wonder how the intelectuals in the united states tolerate this kind of blatently obvious problem.I feel bad for you all.But on this note i was thinking. Curriculums should be broken down with respect to their state or city. And if with -held from text books, information should be at the very least refered to by the teachers. And on an anonymous level if necessary, so as to avoid persecution by other members of the community. Therebye allowing students the opportunity to further their knowlege of their own volition. I would be futher interested to learn where in the US you reside?
with respect.
Michael
posted by
Michael_Adamthwaite
on
May 27, 2005
at
2:11 PM
| |
reply
I often marvel
at the whole thing myself. While I am a supporter of religion, I am also a staunch supporter of critical thought. Both of those aren't mutually exclusive, but for some reason, hereabouts it is. I used to try to discuss the issue (evolution) with people, but the ratio of number of people spoken with and number of people who wouldn't discuss but preach got too high for me to continue. It was in most quarters a losing battle, lots of faith but no sense to be found anywhere.
There is, I must point out, a great number of people silent on the issue. These are people who are often why things wind up going the way they do. It's not because they are whackos but because they are silent. The "evolution in the classroom" debate is something they'd rather others handle, because they don't want to upset their neighbors who are Creationists by taking sides "against" them. By not wanting to upset the apple cart even when it's tipping over, many people let things get undone, and then they later ask others to fix it, wondering how it all got in such a pickle.
And people ask me why I want to leave this place.
posted by
zenresistance
on
May 27, 2005
at
12:12 PM
| |
reply
...anybody know what happened to the Downing St. Memos....did that just get buried too?
posted by
MysticGmekeepr
on
May 27, 2005
at
11:40 AM
| |
reply
Most extremes are insulting to our intelligence.
posted by
TARZANA
on
May 27, 2005
at
8:32 AM
| |
reply
From Bunny to Limey about Laura
A woman I know who lived in Texas the entire time Bush was governor remembers Laura as a chain-smoking, wise-cracking funny lady who seemed intellectually superior to her husband in every way.
(This sort of personality may be the reason she wasn't a particularly good teacher. I haven't heard anything about her teaching abilities.)
The woman I know has always found her "First Lady" persona very weird in a Stepford way.
Laura isn't the only Bush lady to subjugate her views to her husband's political career. Barbara Bush was an outspoken supporter of reproductive rights until her husband, who was pro-choice when he ran against Ronald Reagan for the Republican nomination in 1980 (I remember that very clearly because it was one of the reasons I supported him over Reagan) suddenly shut up when her husband decided to take an anti-choice stand. She disagreed with him again after he was out of office.
But maybe Laura is tired of rubber-stamping her husband's ideas. In the past few days the press has been making the most of the ways in which she does not toe the party line.
Bring back Hillary Clinton -- as President!
posted by
Bunny
on
May 27, 2005
at
8:27 AM
| |
reply
Tarzana NOT orphaned as child?
posted by
TARZANA
on
May 27, 2005
at
6:31 AM
| |
reply
Correction: the possessive of Jesus has no s after the apostrophe.
posted by
Dylan24
on
May 27, 2005
at
6:04 AM
| |
reply
The problem is not that religion thrives here.
The problem is what form that religion takes. It often takes a form that dismisses scientific method and evidence as atheistic and discriminatory against religion, which in a strict sense it is, since religion rests on faith, while science requires proof or the closest thing to proof.
I like a certain amount of faith and proof, in their proper contexts. It is not salutary, however, for those whose propositions rely on faith to ask that these propositions be given credence in science courses, for science is about experimenting and verifying, not blind faith.
If there is evidence of divine providence, let it be presented to teachers and scientists and parents before it is taught to our children as a theory equally meritorious with evolution. Many in America, though, have passionate religious views whose very nature suspects scientific worldviews as something like the Devil's work.
This is not religion in its most thoughtful and helpful form; it is the kind of religion that authorities used to justify the execution of Galileo for advancing his sound theories, that launched Crusades, that blamed Jews for Jesus's death until the 1960s. In short, this does not seem the religion of Jesus Christ so much as that of those who vociferously oppose policies that seem most in keeping with his ideas -- a more equitable distribution of wealth, for example -- and yet proclaim that he is our Savior.
posted by
Dylan24
on
May 27, 2005
at
6:02 AM
| |
reply
Bunny
What a wonderful thought - and so well and funnily expressed. And, do you know, I think it just might work!
PS I believe there's even some doubt as to Laura's ability, especially on the teaching front.
posted by
Limey
on
May 27, 2005
at
3:17 AM
| |
reply
Tigerprincess
Once public-school standards have slipped beyond acceptable levels* no doubt minds will be concentrated. Would you agree?
*In other words, once your economy has been damaged.
posted by
Limey
on
May 27, 2005
at
3:14 AM
| |
reply
Bunny - what a great idea! Only let's enlist Apple's Steve Jobs ...
I wouldn't trust a Windows transporter ... we'd end up somewhere in the black hills of South Dakota. A mac transporter, on the other had, would be totally cool. Anyone could use it without having to understand how it works.
posted by
fwmystic
on
May 26, 2005
at
7:55 PM
| |
reply
You know Limey
I'm gonna hate myself in the morning for saying this, but for once you have a point. I will freely admit that the public education system is a bunch of crap, and good ol' Yankee knowhow is sprouting up home schools where the adults that were taught this crap are now passing it on to their children. Now I'm not saying home school is a bad thing, but the public system really needs some work.
posted by
tigerprincess
on
May 26, 2005
at
5:22 PM
| |
reply
From Bunny
Wouldn't it be great if there were a massive scientist march on Washington? Millions of scientists, engineers and teachers could all wear white lab coats and demand real science must be taught, even if it clashes with the fundamentalists' version of the Bible.
Then they could invade Congress, like the war-protesters did to universities in the 60's, and have teach-ins showing how the subjugation of science to the whims of religious fundamentalism brought down the Ottoman Empire. They would draw parallels between that society and ours, using crayons and hand puppets to reach some of the denser representatives.
Finally, they could beg Bill Gates to let them use the transporter you just know he has stashed away somewhere to beam themselves, a group of dogs, several pots of flowers and ten generations of lab rats into the Oval Office and force President Bush to watch a demonstration about how people have been directing the evolution of domestic plants, animals and viruses for millennia. We would be sure to explain to him the meaning of the word "millennia." He might not understand the presentation anyway, but Laura would.
posted by
Bunny
on
May 26, 2005
at
5:05 PM
| |
reply
Limey, LOL...so sorry...I reread that too late and realized how it might be
taken.
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:41 PM
| |
reply
Indeed Limey ; )
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:40 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
Sorry. It was just your reference to man getting more stupid and linking the word (in my mind) with my posts. Honestly, I try not to be!
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:39 PM
| |
reply
Ms N Dependence
I see - as simple and crude as that: and, therefore, true to American form!
PS I'm glad to see you've not lost your sense of humour and some of strange names like Billy Joe Bob and Mary Jo Jean haven't died out. (I wrote something about them just a few days ago).
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:36 PM
| |
reply
Limey, I just mean that you are pointing it out when you talk about how
we have messed up our environment; that greed/big business rules all; that the logic is missing...I wasn't implying that you're a part of the problem...you are simply doing the work of trying to enlighten...yet, mankind continues to devolve.
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:31 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
I don't quite know how I should take that!
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:29 PM
| |
reply
Reason for the change?
Because Limey - our moronic leaders - political descendants of our founding fathers - do not understand the guiding principals behind 'the separation of Church and State'. The fundamentalist view is if by god (who?) we can not teach the creations story in our public schools - then we will certainly not teach the scientific theory of evolution.
In my state - Bible Belt - science books have a warning label - it reads something to the effect of:
Warning Billy Joe Bob/Mary Jo Jean: This here book contains information which might just challenge your young ass and prove you've been right all along - grown-ups are a bunch of gullible ignorant asses.
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:28 PM
| |
reply
Limey, everything you write about in your posts, day in and day out,
is the proof that man getting more stupid...he is devolving and we see it in the world today.
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:27 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
And what will be the result?
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:25 PM
| |
reply
Painter
Thanks for your detailed explanation. So much for the melting-pot concept!
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:23 PM
| |
reply
Limey, man is devolving, if you ask me...
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:21 PM
| |
reply
fwmystic
Yes, Americans even preach money. Squaring this particular circular, I would have thought, really is impossible.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:20 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
I understand more than 40 per cent of Americans don't accept evolution took place - or, rather, is taking place. Presumably you're one of them?
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:18 PM
| |
reply
Reni
It's very much the same here, with teachers burdened by the highly-restrictive National Curriculum. However, graduates are being offererd as much as $30,000 golden handshakes.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:10 PM
| |
reply
And I might add, I'm no fundamentalist out to mix church and state. I've
written blog after blog supporting just the opposite. But I do believe in creation and believe evolution to be a joke. I've written tons of blogs about it in the past, with supporting creation science evidence so I won't repeat myself here. I realize I'm in the minority, and that's fine. I'm used to it. One day we will all know the truth...
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:07 PM
| |
reply
What's inexplicable is the thought that there's a father figure ...
up above, in heaven ...
who sent his son to Earth, and if you don't believe in him you will be damned and go straight to hell. His son preached humbleness and that the meek shall inherit the earth. But he needs money. Lots and lots of money.
posted by
fwmystic
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:07 PM
| |
reply
Ms N Dependence
Thanks. I'd always thought this was generally accepted. Why the change?
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:06 PM
| |
reply
painter, you weren't there, so you don't know...evolution is NOT a fact.
It cannot be measured and it is NOT backed up with proof 100%.
Theories should be taught side by side. One need not get into doctrine to say that there's a possibility of God behind a creation.
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:04 PM
| |
reply
Limey--It's not that teachers are too timid--it's that they are frightened.
First, teachers here hardly make a decent salary as it is...Second, they are already burdened by so many demands made on them by the school system, students, and unreasonable parents, that they really don't have many choices concerning what they teach anymore. I blame the system more than the teachers.
posted by
Renigade
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:03 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
You are correct sir........that one stood out in my mind. But that kind of thing is the reason for all of the confusion.
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
3:02 PM
| |
reply
Timmy
This was not limited to a single teacher.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:59 PM
| |
reply
first about theories
gravity is a theory
electricity is a theory
a theory is something that cannot be completely quantified and yet it can be observed.
evolution is a demonstrable process, very much so.
creationism is a religious explanation of the origins of what we know.
it has no basis in scientific reasoning. Biblical scholars, archeologists and historians will tell you also that the "creation hymn" of Genesis 1 is one of many similar works extant around that time, whatever it was.
it is the ultimate of restriction of free speech and expression to keep evolution out of the classroom.
if one wants to compare stories of origins, that's fine. only thing is: a class on the biblical account would be a short session. Genesis 1 and the first couple verses of 2 and that's it. Then the class could be taken up with other creation stories of other religions and cultures. Indigenous American stories are so much more exciting than Genesis. the class could take up the idea that the entire world sits on a turtle's back, which is one ancient story.
for school authorities to decide what is good to include and what is bad is quite a bit of power. to exclude evolution is to deprive students of being informed.
one other thing is that the Genesis account of Creation is usually taught to children from an early age in churches where this is believed. it is just about the most common of accounts in the U.S. and is ubiquitous throughout. It has to be accepted that it is already known. Then the question arises as to what good then is it to incorporate it into a school curriculum except in the context of comparative creation stories.
conservative, fundamentalist Christianity has trouble accept much outside of it's belief paradigm. It also tends to be crusading, attempting to tilt common perception to its will, whether or not those recipients are willing.
But this is supposed to be a multicultural society. there are more than fundamentalist Christians residing in this country. there is such a range of Christian belief, much of which is at variance with the fundies, then there are other religions: Judaism, Mohammedanism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Religious Science, Deism, all of which have large number of adherents within our borders; and there are agnostics and atheists.
but what you find is a refusal on the part of the fundies to recognize these others as having equal rights with them to religious expression.
we are facing a crisis of religious and expressive freedom here; where a small, restrictively centered minority is attempting to control what the rest of us will think or learn or believe.
But if we are to grow as a nation, and grow in the world, then we have to discard these limited notions.
posted by
Xeno-x
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:48 PM
| |
reply
Limey
It is for the same reason we are in this god-forsaken war... we'd have to admit that we have been acting upon an unfounded truth. I do not teach science - but I do introduce the fallacy behind creationism whenever I teach mythology. Every culture has a creation story... Christian Americans can not accept the sum without the whole - to believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a story created by early man to explain a natural phenomenon - would be too devastating. It would shake the very foundation of the Christian faith. Which is sad really - the foundation of our faith involving a tale of a man made from dust, a woman made from a rib, a magical tree that bears forbidden fruit and a snake that can talk.
posted by
Transcendental_Child
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:41 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
forgive the mis-spelling......rented fingers
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:40 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
That too can create hate and discontent........a few years ago, there was a teacher (do not remember where) that was teaching students that the hollocast never happened.
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:39 PM
| |
reply
LE Grant
My last statement was meant to be a question!
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:38 PM
| |
reply
Passionflower
Thank you. I'll look it up.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:37 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
I believe that's the case.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:36 PM
| |
reply
Timmy
See my note to LE.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:34 PM
| |
reply
LE Grant
So, ultimately, America will need to provide a choice of schools that reflects different persuasions.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:33 PM
| |
reply
Limey, I wouldn't know...it was stuffed down my throat my whole life
in school.
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:28 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
People are worried about saying the wrong thing that may upset the wrong person, or group. So, they stay away from it.
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:21 PM
| |
reply
Wonder
But it seems in some schools evolution is not being taught at all.
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:19 PM
| |
reply
Here's the link to that I post I wrote about nuclear testing and
Global warming.
posted by
Passionflower
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:03 PM
| |
reply
Add in the other part: they can't pary in schools, since it might offend someone else's religion, so they can't teach the creationist/fundamentalist approach either (it comes from the Bible, and that might offend people not in the judeo-christian-muslim camp)!
posted by
L.E.Gant
on
May 26, 2005
at
2:01 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
To sum in up in my personal, uneducated opinion, I believe that it is due to the diversity of our country; everyone wants to jump on the proverbial bandwagon. Everyone wants to voice thier opinion and at the same time make it the only opinion.
Too many freedoms. Seperation of church and state, people that have nothing better to do than to protest the establishement, question authority on every level. They do this because they have the "right" to.
Someone gets pissed off about how the PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE is worded and so it gets thrown out.
Someone does not believe in GOD and feels that their children should not have a choice other than theirs and so we remove prayer.
We have truely become a milk toast society.
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
1:31 PM
| |
reply
Limey, since evolution is a theory, all theories should be taught equally
posted by
Ariala
on
May 26, 2005
at
1:28 PM
| |
reply
TimmyTales
Delicately put. But why?
posted by
Limey
on
May 26, 2005
at
1:22 PM
| |
reply
LIMEY
To phrase it as simply as I can......we're just fucked up like that!
posted by
TIMMYTALES
on
May 26, 2005
at
1:20 PM
| |
reply
Copy (or write down) this comment's web address (URL), which is:
Next, go to the email or web page where you want to link to this comment, and paste
(or type) the web address.
