Comments on THE PARADOX OF HEAVEN

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One could say that, as with re-incarnation, there are a limited number of souls. If so, why could there not be 144,000 such souls, all of whom have to earn their way (through experiencing many lives, often at the same time) to Heaven.

In that particular scenario, Christ just happens to be the key point at which is was possible for any of these 144,000 souls (his included) to make it the whole way to the side of God....

(Pleas note: this is just "devil's advocate" stuff, not my confirmed belief.)

Oh, where I first heard of the 144,000 (other than Revelations, where it symbolises infinity) was with Presbyterians - great debating point at the moot parliaments at university.

posted by L.E.Gant on May 27, 2005 at 6:59 PM | link to this | reply

sunshinegal
Catholics and Episcopalians and such do NOT -- I repeat -- DO NOT ascribe to the rules of salvation as you and many other Christians have laid out.

By your own very definition, they are not going to Heaven -- am I correct?

Millions -- no, BILLIONS of them have never taken the steps laid out as you have stated.

So what is to be done?

Please answer my specific questions.

posted by Xeno-x on May 27, 2005 at 6:37 AM | link to this | reply

Denominations
Again, don't look at denominations.  Denominations were made by man.  Go directly to God's word.  When he says 'whosoever' may be saved....he means 'whosoever'....The funny thing to me is that each denomination seems to think it is the only one that will really be saved.  Not true.  Denominations really divide the body of Christ  (the church)...Yes, I guess you need them for organization, but Christianity is based on Jesus Christ, ...he is the head of the true Church and denomination is only a tag ...like a Ford or a Chevy is in cars.  I think it is one of the things that separates Christians and, I think stems from the human-competitive nature and has nothing to do with what God thinks of it all.  I don't think in heaven there will be one room for Catholics, one room for Presbyterians, etc.   We will have long forgotten all of that the moment we see Jesus's face.

posted by sunshinegal on May 26, 2005 at 7:19 PM | link to this | reply

that is why the Spirit of God was given to the Christian believer

to help discern what is truth and what is error.

can you see why the mind cannot discern the truth?

there is know way of knowing who or what is correct with any certainty.

can you accept the premise that we need help in sorting out this sprawling mess of confusion corcerning the right way?

a simple act of faith will bring you infinantly closer to knowing the truth, but without that act of faith: round and round you go.

posted by calmcantey75 on May 26, 2005 at 1:50 PM | link to this | reply

let's get right to the point, people

Catholic catechism says that only Catholics will enter Paradise; all other Christians will have hang out in Limbo.

The basic Protestant definition of how one goes to Heaven excludes Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Episcopalians, Lutherans and others who don't preach the Salvation theory that Baptists and others preach.

Answer me this:  by these definitions, we see that both positions exclude millions of Christians.

So who's right?

 

 

 

 

posted by Xeno-x on May 26, 2005 at 1:44 PM | link to this | reply

Empty Handed Painter,
What I don't understand is that of the religions that believe in a quota, why keep recruiting? Surely, that means more competition? I'm more of a generalist: I believe in "all the nations", but then I haven't worked my way through Revelations yet.

posted by Blanche. on May 26, 2005 at 10:14 AM | link to this | reply

The 144 thousand

The 144,000 who will go to heaven, comes from the Book of Revelation...

During the 7 years after the rapture of the church, Christ's Bride...during the time when there is only the anti-Christ and his followers left on earth...There will be left 144,000 Jews, protected by God, who will be able to spread the Gospel.  That is the why of that statement.

There will be many, many Christians saved before that time. God would have it that not one should perish.  That's why he says "Whosoever " may be saved.  These many, many Christians that are now in the process of becoming born again will all be in heaven with Jesus when he returns for them (his Bride) (The church)...when he comes back in the clouds and says "Come up hither!"

fi

That has nothing to do with the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation, as per the first statement above. Read the bible.!

posted by sunshinegal on May 26, 2005 at 10:09 AM | link to this | reply

well -- then there is the innumerable multitude

but referring to the 144 k

brings up the question

who?

of what denomination

or belief system

and this would say that billions of Christians will be left out

right?

posted by Xeno-x on May 26, 2005 at 6:37 AM | link to this | reply

Then there's the concept of The Elect... Only 144,000 souls will get to Heaven, because they are elected by God...

posted by L.E.Gant on May 25, 2005 at 3:52 PM | link to this | reply

Then there's the concept of The Elect... Only 144,000 souls will get to Heaven, because they are elected by God...

posted by L.E.Gant on May 25, 2005 at 3:52 PM | link to this | reply

Painter -
The only Christians who may have reconciled this are the Christian mystics who see beyond the limiting structures of most Christian denominations.

posted by sannhet on May 25, 2005 at 7:22 AM | link to this | reply