Comments on New Series: Searching For Natural Moral Principles

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I rushed by your comment below about good and evil

Gubby, we here on Blogit have been debating evil for quite some time, over a year, at least. Key participants have been myself, Rovesciato, DylanVolente, PG_Scott, BRWisk, Ariala, and a few others I can't remember. Just go back to previous posts in this blog to get your feet wet, and branch out to other previous blogs if you have copious amounts of time. It is a shame you were not with us then.

You ask me to clarify my meaning of goodness. I think goodness requires the understanding of three other concepts, which could be considered as the "components" of Goodness. They are knowledge, love, and justice. They must be understood and applied to life TOGETHER, in synergy, or the result is often something not very good at all. Separately, they can result in great harm. But applied together, they can produce the greatest goodness possible, for individuals and for society.

That is what my current series of posts is discussing. It cannot be addressed properly in one short post or comment. But perhaps I presented here some basic idea of my meaning of "Goodness."

posted by GoldenMean on April 27, 2005 at 3:35 AM | link to this | reply

Yes I saw that

...and it was a very gracious peace offering. I accept.

If you want to conduct an experiment, you might ask you Muslim friends if they know where the money they give to their Mosque is really going. And you might ask them if the leaders of the Mosque are saying anything to condemn the extremists and terrorists of their religion.

I did this with my Muslim friends, and they directed the conversation to criticizing Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. Never mind that the Arab countries have tried to destroy Israel in 4 vicious wars, in which Israel kicked their ass!!! Even the best Muslims seem to be unwilling to acknowledge the evils of their religion.

posted by GoldenMean on April 25, 2005 at 11:17 PM | link to this | reply

Oh, did you see this?

posted by Gubby on April 24, 2005 at 4:35 PM | link to this | reply

Muslims, I think, need to loosen up a little. There has been a few recent, increasingly strong attempts at such a revolution, so far crushed by the power which the Mosque wields... but it's a matter of time. I hope. Just don't mention it to George Bush, or he'll endorse it and nobody will ever want to.

I know a fair few muslims, some of them are my friends, and none of them want to convert or kill me... I hope...

posted by Gubby on April 24, 2005 at 4:30 PM | link to this | reply

Gubby

For my part, I am sorry that I jumped to conclusions about you, too. We got off to a stormy start there, but we are smoothing out the bumps now.

Sure, every religion has its troublemakers. But the Muslim troublemakers want to make everyone into a Muslim, or kill them. It is hard to get along with people like that. I don't want them moving into MY neighborhood, state or country!

posted by GoldenMean on April 24, 2005 at 11:06 AM | link to this | reply

...

I have been around most parts of europe among other places and have correspondances with people from around the world. I am sorry that I jumped to the conclusion that you were the sort of person to sit in a cardboard box all day staring at the walls, but I find it difficult to imagine someone having seen the world and people in it still thinking in terms of enemies in cultures. For anyone exept the seriously religious or nationalist, the culture and location make little odds on people's personality compared to the force of individual variation. I thought that anyone who has been around and got to know enough people would see that.

Muslim invasion. Okay! Muslims are in our countries! Some of them cause problems! You know there are christians in muslim countries too? The world is mixing. It's natural. Why do we need to keep them out?

Drawing these lines generates generates fear, prejudice and, consequently, hatred. That is why there is war.

I agree on that the muslim religion must do more to police its ranks, and that we need to do more to prevent these sorts of outrages. However, so long as people think in a certain way there will be these things going on. Throwing more money / influence / guns directly at the problem at hand will do nothing but inflame things, as is happening. George Bush says he's fighting a war on terrorism, but the terrorists say they are defending themselves.

If we want to change the world, we must start by changing our attitude.

posted by Gubby on April 24, 2005 at 5:11 AM | link to this | reply

So many Gubby comments, so little time

As to the German question of paying citizens to have babies, I appreciate your looking into the matter. You have discovered the official for-the-public talking points. As you say, they couldn't discriminate between native German babies and foriegn babies without creating a huge uproar. BUT, ethnic Germans are still far in the majority. So the effect of the policy will be to reward native Germans more for having babies than it will reward foriegners. Don't think that this point was lost on the German government.

Don't be naive, and don't be caught by surprise when cultural trends don't meet your expectations. There is no Muslim CONSPIRACY per se, but there IS a Muslim invasion of Europe, mostly peaceful, but a social force to be reckoned with. Muslims have a fundamentally different view of humanity than you or I do, and you would be wise to realize that. You say that the borders of countries are invisible, but the borders between cultures and religions are NOT invisible, and they are not in my imagination. If you think so, YOU are the one who needs to see a bit more of the world for yourself.

I own houses in 2 countries. I have visited, or lived in, 12 countries. They are: The United States of America, Canada, Mexico, Thailand, Japan, Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Monaco, Belgium.

How many countries have you been to?

posted by GoldenMean on April 23, 2005 at 10:12 PM | link to this | reply

Look at this current story, Gubby

Here is one current example of the trouble with Muslims in Europe. Consider what is happening in Holland in the aftermath of the Muslim murders of Pim Fortuyn, a critic of Holland’s extreme multiculturalism and of Theo Van Gogh, the controversial filmmaker. This is reported in the most recent issue of the bi-weekly National Review magazine by Andrew Stuttaford.

After Van Gogh’s brutal murder last November, the strong contingent of Islamic extremists in Holland issued threats to two members of the Dutch Parliament, Ayaan Ali and Geert Wilders. The Dutch government put the two legislators into protective hiding. They took Ali to a heavily guarded “safe house,” and took Wilders to live in..... A PRISON!!!

So now, two members of the Dutch Parliament are living like prisoners, while those who threaten them remain free, to further their cause of Islamic dominance. The death threats continue, some calling for the beheading of these two members of the government. Back in February, Ayaan Ali complained bitterly that the government seems incapable of ensuring the safety of its own officials.

Gubby, this is just one example. I am sure there is much, much more to illustrate the growing problem of Muslim extremism in Europe. I just don’t have the time to find it and report it. But if we (actually you in Europe) don’t do more to suppress this kind of religious crime, it could be coming to your own European street someday soon.

Now, Gubby, while most Muslims don’t support the Muslim extremists directly, they also don’t do anything to stop them or condemn them. And some of the money they give to their neighborhood mosque, which they think is used to do good things, is sent to the extremist and terrorist groups. The Muslim religion MUST do more to police its own ranks and reform its oppressive doctrines.

posted by GoldenMean on April 23, 2005 at 9:32 PM | link to this | reply

This is more like it, Gubby!

I look forward to reading your blog on happiness. That is the sort of issue I like to think about and discuss. Perhaps we can put an end to our baser language and have a useful interchange.

I spent a few years in Germany, in the 1980's. Even then many Germans were becoming concerned about the large number of gastarbieter (guest workers} coming into the country from mostly Muslim countries. Pakistan comes to mind, and another country I can't recall. I have seen news stories about the large number of somewhat arrogant and belligerent Muslims who now live in England. A Muslim in Holland recently executed that artist, Van Gough?, for saying that Muslim culture treated women badly, I believe. Most Muslims are good people, of course. I have some Muslim customers who I consider to be my friends. But there ARE sinister movements within Islam, like the Wahhabi (spelling?)sect, that were responsible for the horrible Muslim tyranny of the Taliban in Afghanistan, and who would like to bring that same religious tyranny to your neighborhood and mine. The threat is out there, and it is bigger than you seem to willing to acknowledge.

posted by GoldenMean on April 23, 2005 at 4:56 PM | link to this | reply

Happiness...

I think ever-improving survival is far too superficial to cinch it.

I wrote an answer to what makes happiness, but it got too long. In fact I'd been getting ready to write this for ages... So see my blog.

posted by Gubby on April 23, 2005 at 5:53 AM | link to this | reply

Good and Evil...

I hope this doesn't push the previous comments I made out of the picture, but good and evil:

Good must be whatever increases the level of happiness in the world. When you say something makes the world better, what do you really mean? You mean it makes people's lives better and so on. Can you tell me what else could it be?

You need to come to an understanding of what you really mean by Good and Evil. Even if your conclusion is different, you need to know what it is you are pursuing. It would clear things.

posted by Gubby on April 23, 2005 at 4:50 AM | link to this | reply

Materialism

Looking back at the materialism bit which started off the - irrelivant really - SUV thing. I wouldn't put materialism across as fundamentally wrong. However, being as it is it creates the major problems with greed that we already have. People need to understand how they can be happy while living relatively simply. If they don't, the resources will run out and eventually they'll have to anyway. However, when wars are started for the sake of resources... then it stops being so superficial.

posted by Gubby on April 23, 2005 at 4:45 AM | link to this | reply

I researched the germany thing quickly: "By 2030, German demographers project their country will have 7 million fewer people of working age than now, yet 8.5 million more people of retirement age. There are now four workers supporting each retiree. Within a generation there could be just two. " “Germany, where the low birthrate has already closed down dozens of schools and put the welfare system at risk…”

There we have a possible reason to increase the number of children. They don’t do any different for racially pure children and they couldn’t without creating an uproar, so your cultural invasion idea wouldn’t even work. I don't put myself off as an expert on this, neither do I represent Germany, but then it seems to be a perfectly reasonable answer in the light of that paranoid xenophobic bullshit you come up with, muslims invading europe. They come to europe for whatever reason, economic mostly I guess. There could be no conspiracy on such a grand scale going unnoticed. And the fact is, most muslims or people for that matter do not view things like we are muslims, christians are our enemies, we must win. The muslim immigrants that I know do not give a damn. If they hated christiandom so strongly they would stay in their own countries. And yea, there are some people who view it as one great struggle for survival, not least you. That's why we have terrorism and war and everything, because people are so closed-minded as to think things like culture and religion make any real odds.

Stop making judgements of other countries. Stop being proud of, hating, respecting, or whatever a country, because all it is is a landmass with a language and a history. You think I should be proud of the cultural roots that our countries share? No, I am not. I don’t care. I am me. My country has done nothing to make that, and I have changed my country in no way that I can take pride in. A country is an invisible border, dammit! As long as people keep on drawing those lines in their imagination we will continue having the problems we have today.

I suggest you see the world a bit more for yourself. Don't form your opinions on what is spoon-fed to you by the media.

posted by Gubby on April 23, 2005 at 4:25 AM | link to this | reply

I used the SUV quote once and then, I clearly stated, if you want to have a look, that while I disagree with your stance on the things it was the arrogance, the "We're Better than you because we have more money and weapons" kind of attitude, and I've seen it in Americans too often, that really pissed me off.

You seem to jump between faces here. “it brought us together in the blogging world. I think we may both benefit from the exchange.”

“Gubby's fixation with them, or with me, is symptomatic of his/her basic problem. He/she seems to be trying to use this issue to increase his/her popularity on Blogit. He/she is a blogging parasite.”

You tell me not to jump to conclusions, and then you tell me about *my* basic problems. You ARE an interesting fellow. I think we shall benefit from this exchange.

Now that that's settled.. More coming up in a mo.

posted by Gubby on April 23, 2005 at 4:16 AM | link to this | reply

Dylan

As you say, Sport Utility Vehicles are not the problem, but Gubby has now made my mention of them his Whipping Boy. He is now trying to demonize me over the SUV issue, and I will not allow it. SUV's are irrelevant to the pivotal problems of the world. To hell with SUV's. Gubby's fixation with them, or with me, is symptomatic of his/her basic problem. He/she seems to be trying to use this issue to increase his/her popularity on Blogit. He/she is a blogging parasite.

Gubby, forget SUV's.

Instead, give me a reason that I should pay attention to your views. You are using the tactics of smear and fear, hit and run. I answered you in your blog, so answer me here. Why is Europe collapsing to the Muslim immigrant invasion? The Eastern culture is flocking to the Western culture. Muslim immigrants are flooding into European countries. Why? Because they sense the superiority, and the stupidity, of Western culture. Some value the freedom and technology we offer, but others plot to use it against us. All they have to do is to move to Western countries, gain citizenship, and then have more babies than we do. It is the Islamic plan of conquest. That is why Germany is offering payment for babies born to German citizens. Correct me if I am wrong. I await your enlightening reply.

posted by GoldenMean on April 22, 2005 at 10:35 PM | link to this | reply

Golden Mean,

I also wanted to chime in on the SUV and population growth issues.  I basically agree that SUVs would not be a problem if the world had stable population and relatively small demand for them.  But population growth appears to be continuing and does not promise, as far as I know, to decline substantially in the near future.  We would be wise to conserve our resources in case we, for whatever reason, run out of them later on.  For the same reason we should look seriously at alternative, renewable energy instead of so strongly pursuing oil. 

SUVs per se are not the problem, but what purpose they serve for the people using them.  This varies based on a person's life circumstances.  An SUV may be a good idea for a large family or a person who frequently drives carpool, but I strongly suspect that many people who have no particular need for such a large and fuel-inefficient vehicle buy one anyway as a status symbol, which Gubby alluded to in his remarks about wanting to show how big we are.  There is no doubt in my mind that such a desire does exist in a lot of people, and it is harmless enough to the extent that it does not strongly affect other people. 

Unfortunately, the ego-driven SUV does affect other people by increasing, proportionally more so than smaller vehicles, our dependence on foreign oil and global climate change.  Eventually we are going to have to reckon with this, and it is those whom Rush Limbaugh simplistically calls the environmentalist wackos who thirty or forty years from now will look rather prescient, unless we really do more to use alternative energy sources and conserve fossil fuels. 

This is why government policy has to address, and in some way regulate, the consumption of nonrenewable energy sources and, by logical extention, the use of manmade items that rely on that consumption.  We all are affected to a significant degree by each other's choice of how to use our planet's resources, so we have to come together and agree on a common energy policy.  Leaving it strictly to individual choice frees people to do whatever they may wish with regard to energy, no matter how much they pollute the air and deprive future generations of crucial natural resources.  So I agree with you that we need to get population growth under control (however, Germans and other Europeans are understandably concerned about a Europe with a declining native-born population -- Europe is becoming less European and more Arab), but until we do get it under control, we need to be more cautious in how we use limited resources.

posted by Dyl_Pickle on April 22, 2005 at 2:23 PM | link to this | reply

Another point for Gubby

If Thomas Malthus, I, and a host of environmentalists/liberals are correct that population growth is our greatest problem, some Europeans just don't get it. Germany is PAYING people to have babies! I don't know if they pay more for ethnic Germans, but what the devil do they think they are doing? Can you shed any light on this apparent insanity?

posted by GoldenMean on April 21, 2005 at 9:52 PM | link to this | reply

Mysteria and Dylan

Sorry, I am too sleepy to do justice to your comments tonight. I will resume at the next opportunity.

posted by GoldenMean on April 21, 2005 at 9:34 PM | link to this | reply

Gubby

Where in Europe are you? I suppose I could find out by reading all your blogs, but I am much too lazy to do that, when you will be reading this and can easily inform us.

Sorry, I had to push that SUV button. It was too tempting. But I am glad I did, for it brought us together in the blogging world. I think we may both benefit from the exchange.

Aside from bringing up SUV's, a mostly American product, I was talking about WESTERN civilization. I never mentioned America, you did. Western civilization has been slowly "Westernizing" the world, ever since Alexander the Great conquered most of it. Pick a fight with America if you want, but we are part of the same cultural heritage, that has transformed most of the world with freedom and technology. We should be proud of it.

Sure, world petrol reserves are projected to run out in a century or so, at the insanely accelerating rate of population growth. That is the greatest threat to this planet--- everything else is just a symptom of it. Ever since England's economist and philosopher Thomas Malthus (1766-1834) brought scholarly attention to the problem of population growth, and urged voluntary moral restraint (delayed marriage and abstinence), the civilized world has been guilty of ignoring the main problem that will be the downfall of our species. Or so it seems. In 50 more years, when we have 15 or 20 billion mouths to feed, SUV's will be the least of our problems.

posted by GoldenMean on April 21, 2005 at 9:27 PM | link to this | reply

Painter, you paint well with your words

First, to answer your lead question, I seek simple truth and goodness, and I have found some truth and much more goodness, in people like you. Your comment was longer than most posts, and I know the effort that goes into such a comment.

I think we are in agreement (and in disagreement with Gubby) about the irrelevance of happiness to good and evil. People who seek to help or empower others are happy to do good things, and people who seek dominance over others are happy to do evil things. As I wrote in this post, some people are just as happy killing babies as others are happy raising babies.

As you say, "DO NO HARM" is a great place to start in seeking goodness. Then, the basic principle of moral reciprocity, the Golden Rule, with its basic regard and love for others, takes goodness to its highest level. This is a lifetime quest for those who seek it. But at the highest levels of goodness are the highest challenges.

For example, what should we do when our example of goodness does not impress others, when it attracts parasites and predators who sense an easy score? They begin to drain our resources, they begin to dominate us. Is this merely an expression of our animal nature, establishing a 'pecking order', or is it a moral/spiritual expression of willfull evil?

When others take destructive advantage of our goodness, should we follow the example of Christ and allow them to abuse us and crucify us? Should we react in a way that limits or counteracts the power of the person who has just exposed part of their true predatory nature to us? Should we seek to punish them when they richly deserve it? Or should we just separate ourselves from them? Or should we, long-suffering, tolerate them to some degree, wary of their designs on us, hoping to have some influence on them?

I have tried all of the above in different circumstances, as we all probably have to some degree. Sometimes what I did worked brilliantly, sometimes it failed miserably. Sometimes I did exactly the wrong thing. But I learned from that. I think there is a proper reaction to every situation, if we can detect all the major elements involved, if we can just have the patience and wisdom to see it. AND if we can be open and humble to whatever help, seen or unseen, flesh or spirit, that may be offered to us. Help can come from the most unexpected direction.

I am intrigued by the warrior's way of Juan Matus. This is the first I have heard of it. But I don't think I am seeking self-importance, while the likes of Jesse Jackson certainly are. I seek objective knowledge, and that requires strict standards to try to strain out self-deception. I question my every thought and word, far from thinking them to be self-important. So naturally, I question the thoughts and words of others, to look for their self-deception, their failure to seek knowledge. I am a lover of wisdom, which makes one a philosopher, by definition in the Greek (philos=love, sophia=wisdom).

Everyone who responded here is a philosopher in their own right, and I hope I will do justice to their excellent comments.

Finally, Painter-far-from-empty-handed, I will strive to heed your advice to learn how I have and have not lived in goodness, so as to improve myself and perhaps the world around me. But to do that, we must have an understanding and some agreement upon what goodness is, and that is the quest of this series of posts.

posted by GoldenMean on April 21, 2005 at 9:00 PM | link to this | reply

you seek -- do you find?

you make the distinction between the needs of other animals, and thenof humans
as the human mind developed, more complexity in behavior and interaction developed
and yet
the basic human needs are simply more complex animal needs. the desire for material goods, for example, can be found in other animals and their collecting of certain artifacts from their surroundings
you muse about happiness and goodness, inquiring into dictonary meanings and other such
of course the question is "What makes one happy?"
We are a selfish animal and things that fulfill the self (material, acquisitions, aprobation of others, self-importance) make us happy.
Problem is, in order to maintain the level of happiness, we must contiually acquire more of the same; and then we are still left empty and wanting more because what was new and shiny and exciting has now become old and dull. It's a continual cycle.
There is no happiness because people are continually caught up in this selfish cycle at the expense of others; so everyone is stealing everyone else's happiness.
Here is where goodness comes in.
My basic definition of goodness has its basis in the physician's rule of "Do no harm."
We are then beyond rules, etc., that attempt to define sin, thus by inference, goodness.
Of course there is then "However you want others to treat you, that's the way you should treat others." (Golden Rule).
You should want for others what you want for yourself. Just like "Love your neighbor as yourself." -- You must develop a healthy self-image.
The animal pursuit of happiness does not promote such, for in order for a person to be happy (as they perceive such to be), that person must take away from others, deflating their self-image and defending mightily their own which has been deflated by others in pursuit of their own "happiness".
Juan Matus outlined the warrior's way once with four basic precepts.

Erase personal history.
Lose self-importance.
Assume responsibility.
Use Death as an advisor.

These first two precepts are what we deal with when we want to deal with the lack of happiness from the pursuit of happiness.

Discard the past -- because all that we have experienced has to do with others basically discarding us because they don't feel we are important -- they feel that they are important and others aren't (which is a defensive mechanism to being made to feel not important).

Understand that you are standing and always have stood on solid ground. "You are somebody.", as Jesse Jackson has wanted to emphasize.

Salvation is the discarding of past guilt and present and future feelings of such based on past guilt.

Now -- understand that the self-importance that you have been seeking uselessly is a mirage. Move to a new importance. "I am somebody." " . . . a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars." Understand your ture importance, which is that you and all around you stand solid as respectable and respected human beings.

And here is another point of "good" -- hold everyone (and everything) you encounter in the highest regard; treat them with the highest respect. Understand that in doing, you are treating them, not only as you want to be treated, but as you perceive yourself.

Then move forward from this point day by day, learning how you have and have not lived in such a manner as to improve yourself and the world around you in this manner.

posted by Xeno-x on April 21, 2005 at 6:49 AM | link to this | reply

I wrote up an extensive peice on morality in my philosophy blog a while back, you might like to see it. I sum it up as Good=that which increases the overall amount of happiness in existance.

I'm too sleepy to read your thing all over today, but one thing caught my eye that will irritate me if I don't point it out now: "In other words, KEEP DRIVING THOSE SUV's, folks, they are not evil! SUV's are a marvel of technological practicality and utility. They are imminently USEFUL without doing any inherent harm, therefore they are GOOD. The evils they are painted with by environmental extremists, are really just the evils of over-population. Stop having too many babies, and the oil will last for thousands of years, and the pollution will not be significant. SUV's fill a legitimate natural material need. Western civilization has excelled in filling these natural material needs, and should not feel apologetic about it. Our invention, our innovation, our material success is envied by common people all over the world."

I checked it over a couple of times, but couldn't find any sarcasm. You are either a master of subtlety man or you really don't get out very much.

SUVs are practical if you need a powerful car. Driving an SUV in the city, which is what  you americans do, is pointless. They use up masses more fuel than other cars, are not safe, and are incredibly unweildly. I don't call them evil, although the environment may be suffering, I call them stupid. You don't need them, unless you want to pull a caravan or do off road drives. That thing about oil goign on for thousands of years? Bullshit man, we know approximately how much oil there is left to be extracted and the most optimistic calculations put us about one hundred years.

"Western civilization has excelled in filling these natural material needs, and should not feel apologetic about it. Our invention, our innovation, our material success is envied by common people all over the world." This is the reason why the world hates america. I can't believe you! You think everyone in the rest of the world gets up in the morning, brushes their teeth and thinks, damn I wish I were an American? For your information, we "common people" in europe generally would have enough money, at a squeeze, if we wanted to keep an SUV, but we don't feel the need to prove to the world how big we are every day! Open your eyes, learn about things before you venture one of your golden opinions, or you can never call yourself a philosopher!

posted by Gubby on April 20, 2005 at 4:02 PM | link to this | reply

This is some of the strongest work of yours that I have read.  It helped me by reminding me of the moral imperative to survive.  Having not read any Ayn Rand for awhile, I had forgotten the articulated form of that principle, which of course makes it very difficult to argue on its behalf, even if one has an overwhelming intuitive notion of it. 

I am still exceedingly vexed by the problem of proving objective moral truth, for I have found that even the arguments I have made, which at first I considered irrefutable, have logical challenges.  For awhile, you may recall, I was zealously arguing that there was an objective moral imperative to preserve and enhance human life because in order for a person to do the opposite, one would have to rely on the very resources life provides -- a functioning mind and body; thus to use the resources of life to defeat life cheats life and thus must be immoral. 

This reasoning still suffices for me insofaras it provides a logical reason for preserving life -- but only after one has accepted the premise that life is, and always will be, good.  If a person were to argue, for instance, "sure, life is good right now, but death could still be good tomorrow, so it is moral for me to use my life faculties to bring upon my death tomorrow," then my argument could not necessarily refute that.  That is to say, life could theoretically be good as long as it serves my interest in bringing about death, at which point death becomes good.  Absurd though this may sound, my argument does not adequately refute this.

Also, of course, there is the problem of justified suicide or euthanasia -- not justified homicide ala self-defense, which does not contradict my argument since self-defensive homicide clearly saves innocent lives -- in a situation in which a person is no longer able to live enjoyably and productively and wishes to end his or her life, perhaps due to a terminal illness or the necessity of a life-support machine.  I am not a proponent of assisted suicide or euthanasia, but clearly there would be cases in which it would probably be morally justified to take certain actions which hasten a person's death, and again, my argument fails to account for that.

So I look forward to reading what comes next from the tips of your inspired fingers as to good and evil.  It really "pumped me up," as we would say in my frat days, to see a new post from you. 

posted by Dyl_Pickle on April 20, 2005 at 2:59 PM | link to this | reply

GoldenMean

So nice to see you and wOw look at what you have conjured up for us this time!  I am glad you have the time to think.  It is comforting to know that there are those among us that care about goodness as much as I do.  Did I read somewhere in my wanderings that you have a published book? 

SO happy to see you! YaY!  mysteria

ps I have to go to bed now, so I only breifly scanned this.  I should like to find the time soon to give it the attention it deserves.  Right now I have sleepy dust in my eyes.

posted by mysteria on April 19, 2005 at 9:46 PM | link to this | reply