Go to Religion in the Modern World
- Add a comment
- Go to So waddya think --- does the Pope go straight to Heaven?
JanesOpinion -- now you are saying something completely different
without realizing it. The biggest problem faced by anyone who holds that Jesus died for our sins is in the reconciliation of a number of disconnects in logic. The most obvious being that his "word" or this belief in general is not all inclusive, there are too many people who have been born on this planet that have never heard of him or are adherants of differing faith systems. Are they to be denied a chance for eternal salvation due to such reasons as geographical origins or cultural heritage or even economic disadvantage? You cannot answer this adequately, no one holding this belief ever has. The son of an all powerful God somehow cannot distribute his message to more than 40% of the world's populace, after 2,000 years? But don't let that little fact get in the way of suggesting that the pope must accept a protestant belief to enter the pearly gates.
Concepts such as Purgatory or Limbo and even confessing one's sins are indeed all manufactured constructs of the Roman Catholic church. All added to an underlying precept and melded with centuries of tradition. Evolving to a point where the lines between construct, tradition and underlying belief have been blurred. Does any of this matter however? Everyone on this planet who believes in such things feels they know the right path to heaven. It's a sad comedy really.
As for my commentary being caustic:......if it bothers you, don't read it.
posted by
gomedome
on April 3, 2005 at 3:15 PM
| link to this | reply
Gome, these two different traditions --
Protestantism and Catholicism have the same roots and revolve around the same Bible. Sure I don't believe all the extra stuff they've thrown in, but we value many of the same core beliefs. I don't agree with Catholics on Purgatory, because such a belief insinuates that man must pay for his sins, when the Bible states that Jesus died and paid the price in full, and salvation is freely available to all who accept. But that said, even though we disagree, I believe there will be many, many Catholics in heaven . . . and there will be many, many people who called themselves (Protestant) Christians who end up in hell.
But why I bother mentioning this to you, who has such caustic opinions about the Church, is beyond me.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 3, 2005 at 11:43 AM
| link to this | reply
JanesOpinion -- you fundies just don't get it do you?
Typically you are intent on enveloping all peoples with your beliefs. Where this notion becomes particularly ludicrous is in extending it to a person who by all definition has been a dedicated holy man his entire life. The fact he does not believe as you do doesn't seem to matter to you. One more time, according to John Paul II's beliefs he is now in purgatory awaiting the day that he has completely attoned for his sins so that he may enter heaven. A variation on the same final judgment theme.
What you and chrysallis are saying is that a man who has been the representative icon of a particular faith and belief system will suddenly be faced with the reckoning of your belief system. I say to both of you: Give your heads a shake. Where I do not buy into either set of manufactured constructs I can at least recognize that one belief system is no more valid than the other. We are speaking of the pope for petesake, if he has it wrong where does that leave the rest of humanity?
posted by
gomedome
on April 3, 2005 at 10:34 AM
| link to this | reply
I'm with chrysalis on this, which won't surprise you any --
fact is, the Pope was a man just like approx 50% of the world's population. He will give an accounting to God for his actions, just like you and I (although I realize you don't believe that, Gome). I respect him for maintaining some of the traditions (i.e. pro life, celibacy, etc), although I question the need for priests to refrain from marriage; that belief is certainly extra-Biblical, and I believe the Catholic Church will have so much to answer for in the way of abuse by priests. Anyway, the Pope's experience in the after life will be the same for you or me, and that is how we answer the question God will ask each one of us: "what has been your relationship with my Son, Jesus Christ?"
posted by
JanesOpinion
on April 3, 2005 at 8:46 AM
| link to this | reply
why thank you, how very kind and thoughtful of you Nurse Ratched
I hope the Pope is at Peace.
posted by
chrysalis
on April 2, 2005 at 11:27 PM
| link to this | reply
chrysalis -- I really hate getting in between a person and their fantasy
But one more time: the pope does not believe as you do.
posted by
gomedome
on April 2, 2005 at 11:17 PM
| link to this | reply
yeah yeah yeah
whatever. Like I said, It depends on whether or not he truly accepted Jesus Christ.
posted by
chrysalis
on April 2, 2005 at 10:59 PM
| link to this | reply
avant-garde --- ultimately you are voicing one of my opinions albeit
in a roundabout way. Is the pope a "shoe in" to go straight to heaven? I feel as you have illustrated in your comment that he is going to find that the robes and status are immediately stripped away. In other words: it will be the same for him as for anyone else, if some form of afterlife exists.
posted by
gomedome
on April 2, 2005 at 9:54 AM
| link to this | reply
man-boy -- I look forward to your post on the subject.
Your perspective as a survivor of the RC system (if survivor is the right word) can hold an insight that others may not be capable of. And you are correct, he was just a man. One that was trying to act as a conduit to an ever elusive supreme being.
posted by
gomedome
on April 2, 2005 at 9:49 AM
| link to this | reply
chrysalis -- I can't remember laughing harder at a comment
This is the pope we are talking about, the leader of an international religion that does not believe as you do. Is it possible for you to comprehend that? The Roman Catholic church, though feeling that they are as Christian as any other faith declaring themselves as such, do not believe that simply accepting Jesus as your saviour is a ticket to heaven. For RC's it is more complicated than that. All sins must be resolved by the sacrements last rites or confession just to get a ticket to the heaven waiting room they call purgatory. Once in purgatory they suffer the same damnation as they would in hell but not for infinity. Basically they have a sentence to serve with the pearly gates awaiting them upon release.
posted by
gomedome
on April 2, 2005 at 9:36 AM
| link to this | reply
readywriter55 -- that's it in a nutshell
During a period which can only be described as a death vigil it is very tacky to begin describing an individual's shortcomings. I was very careful not to do that. This pope's legacy however was one of maintaining longstanding tradition while seeming to ignore modern day concerns and some of the real issues his church faced during his term. Many applaud him for this but the reality exists in that the problems still remain for his successor.
posted by
gomedome
on April 2, 2005 at 9:26 AM
| link to this | reply
pope
i think he will be in for a bit of surprise to find his judgments are his own, and that he created his reality of status. he might look for God, but it resides in him and so he is likely to be lost.
posted by
avant-garde
on April 2, 2005 at 2:01 AM
| link to this | reply
Very good gomedome.
I may piggy back a post on this theme ina day or two. The man has to face some serious self examination over issues such as birth control... and that is all he was. A man. Does he get to keep the crowns and jets?
I think he is happy to die.
Why such sadness from people. Are they sad to see him suffer? Sad to see him die? I watched old Bill Cantrell die. An ancient man who once played in the negro leagues. I took him cigarets in the hospital way way back when you could still do such things.
When the shine left his face I was happy for him. Without a doubt he was back playing ball with Satchel Paige.
I am going to read this post again.
Manboy
posted by
man-boy
on April 1, 2005 at 10:02 PM
| link to this | reply
depends on whether or not he accepted
Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior
posted by
chrysalis
on April 1, 2005 at 9:48 PM
| link to this | reply
I did read your essay, a second time, and I will give you
the benefit of the doubt, that what you wrote, was to be a postive response to a very difficult time in the life of one man, one faith, and most of the world.
posted by
MountainClimber57
on April 1, 2005 at 9:46 PM
| link to this | reply
Gomedome, maybe I need to read the work again, a little more carefully!
posted by
MountainClimber57
on April 1, 2005 at 9:44 PM
| link to this | reply
Actually readywriter55 -- I'm being extremely careful about what I am
saying here.
posted by
gomedome
on April 1, 2005 at 9:40 PM
| link to this | reply
Gomedome, I would be careful with your judgment --
Someone greater that you and I might be in control. Is is a coincedence that Terri Shiaov, a Catholic and now Pope John Paul II holds the worlds attention? I don't think so!
posted by
MountainClimber57
on April 1, 2005 at 9:30 PM
| link to this | reply