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whoops.....that would be little...
posted by
Temple
on March 30, 2005 at 11:22 PM
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Sad litte girl you are.
posted by
Temple
on March 30, 2005 at 11:22 PM
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TEMPLE: how's the view from your ivory tower?
I name-call and I own it.
You do it and it's righteous indignation.
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 30, 2005 at 10:11 AM
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amdg, you just proved my point...
Nowhere in my posts have I ever been snooty or mocked any faith or belief or those for believing it. I've been here a long time, and those who read me would back me on that, I'm sure of it. Your negativity radiates off of you profoundly. Am I perfect? No, never claimed it. But, I have not said one thing with the intent of hurting anyone's feelings here. Not to mention, I haven't been using my spiritual beliefs in these discussions until recently, and not to make any point. I've been a positive source of energy here, made friends with people, for more than a year. We've connected in real life and helped each other when we were in trouble. It's very sad to see that you resort to such petty name calling when you cannot find a valid argument. I do not act like an adult? That makes me laugh. I've been through a lot in my life, and people who are nasty and ugly, that like to be hurtful, I can't be bothered with. You must be unhappy in your own life, and for that, I am sorry for you. I am actually a very good representative of Buddhism, yes. Those who've met me from here, those in my real life, they know my heart. I am not mean spirited. I suppose if calling me a child makes you feel better, go for it. But I know what I've been through, and my triumphs, and how I make a difference for people. I've always been an advocate in the community, in one avenue or another. So, am I a perfect representation? No. Am I a good Buddhist? Yes. Have people known my light and love and wanted it, and asked about my path to it? Yes. Do they read about it in my posts and speak to me of inspiration and truth and love and connection with my experiences, who I am? Yes. So, say what you will. Once again, you are spinning the truth to make it what you want it to be....and your only way to debate with me is to try and hurt me. The only thing is does, is make you look small.
posted by
Temple
on March 29, 2005 at 8:05 PM
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amdg
would god want Terri's immortal soul to remain housed in what the predominance of informed people say is nothing more than an animal brainstem where the human no longer resides -- rather than being released to go to Paradise?
do you think that is moral?
but you have answered that question if you come down on the side of reinserting Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
You have said that you do want such by taking such a position.
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 29, 2005 at 12:07 PM
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my point exactly, renigade
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 29, 2005 at 12:00 PM
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amdg--I don't think anyone is a perfect representative of their beliefs...
posted by
Renigade
on March 29, 2005 at 11:23 AM
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might someone walk away from Buddhism
because of your self important, snooty , whiny attitude? Before I started commenting and writing again here, I read your posts and remarks. You denigrate the faith of others, you mock Christians and others who live by a moral code you don't subscribe to, call them a host of uncomplimentary things and when I you get a taste of your own bile you can't take it. You don't act like an adult. You act like a spoiled brat on the school yard.
I'm not a "good" Catholic, I make no claims to moral superiority. I subscribe to a moral code that I sometimes fall short of. I don't change my beliefs based on my desire of the moment. If anyone is turned off to Christianity because of the likes of me, they give me far more credit than I deserve. To be one is to be a follower of Christ, not me. Are you a perfect representative of your beliefs? We know the answer to that.
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 29, 2005 at 11:20 AM
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e.h.p.
what I want is immaterial. The questions are: can someone make that determination for others , even a legal guardian, if that person can't speak for themself? What happens when we start toying with the definition of life, when we start deciding for others if their lives are worth living? Are feeding tubes extraordinary means? These are the issues that every citizen should be concerned with.
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 29, 2005 at 11:01 AM
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maybe the question is
who's playing God here?
Those removing the feeding tube
or those wanting it reinserted?
nobody knows that there is a soul there.
to those who claim that there is, I have another question -- would you want that immortal soul to remain housed in what the predominance of informed people say is nothing more than an animal brainstem where the human no longer resides -- rather than being released to go to Paradise?
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 29, 2005 at 7:13 AM
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I didn't miss your points, I got them and have been getting them for days.
Now I'm not a grown up...and you're comparing me to a guy on death row? I worked for the public defenders office and the district attorney's office. I am a litigator. Believe me, face to face, with all the proper facts (which once again, I will point out, you do NOT have because they are NOT available to us) you would find a whole new ballgame. That is a fight you would not want, or win. I assure you.
Once again, I will say this, and then I will wash my hands of this and you. You apparently are more interested in hurting people's feelings than having an intellectual, philisophical debate about a difficult topic. This is about CHOICE. Her intent not to live this way was determined the best way they could, through the courts....over 7 years....by people much more informed than yourself to decide what is best. What is right and wrong is already laid out here in the laws on the books, that were applied to this case, decided by some 19 or so judges...who were convinced of Terri's will. If it's her will, then that has to be enough.
No matter what is said and done regarding Terri to those in your camp, it would have never been enough. More tests, more therapy. It stopped being about her a long time ago, and began being about a religious conservative agenda. I walked away from Catholicism because of "good" Christians like you that would rather stand in judgment of others than find common ground. I agree with Jimmy, people like you are the reason that people have such a bad taste in their mouth about Christians.....giving those that truly follow the word of Christ, the true spirit of that religion, problems. I have met those people here, they have given me much love. I have seen what a real, loving, and true Christian can be. I will light a candle for you and hope you find your way to that.
posted by
Temple
on March 29, 2005 at 12:56 AM
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Temple : morality and religion are not the same thing
Religions are generally establishments with moral codes. Law absolutely stems from principles. Yes, principles presuppose that some things are right and some are wrong. You mentioned justice, fairness. How do you define justice? More importantly, how does the law or lawmakers decide what is just? What informs their decisions? I'm guessing they don't lick their fingers and hold 'em in the wind.
You essentially admit that later on in your remarks. And yes, there are differences of opinion about what is right and what is wrong. Most guys on death row and I would probably disagree on right and wrong. You and I disagree on this matter. Doesn't mean there's no right or wrong about it.
You missed the points I made in my remarks to Empty Handed Painter. He, like you, gets ired when he thinks Christians are imposing their morality on others. He then proceeds to apply his morality to the Schiavo case and offer a mini philosophical treatise on the soul and the body, and, in the process, misrepresents the beliefs of Christianity. I was chewing up his ass about it. He's a grown-up, he can take it.
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 29, 2005 at 12:15 AM
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What Temple said...
but she is much more polite toward amdg than I feel like being...you all know that amdg is an acronym right...Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam, or, if you don't know the Latin..."To the greater glory of God." All I can say is that you are awfully presumptuous to believe that your small minded intolerance and bigotry serves to show anybody "the greater glory od God." It is exactly the sort of behavior that you exibit that turns many good and reasonable people away from Christianity. If you truly wish the Christian faith to spread, you should keep your mouth shut, everything you say serves as an advertisement for any alternative to your religion. You believe I'm going to Hell, I'm sure, so be it. If you and those like you are going to heaven, I would rather fry for eternity than find myself in your company.
posted by
jimmy68
on March 28, 2005 at 11:36 PM
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Here's the thing amdg...
You don't know any better than any of us where her soul is, that's a fact. I have my belief, you have yours. We agree on that. What you continue you say as reasons why this or that should happen is based on religious belief and what you've read in single sided accounts of this story. I know for a fact that by law not all of this information can be released, so you are not getting all of it. Not to mention, this situation shouldn't be looked at through a religious lense, it should be looked at through two things: her wishes and our best way to determined them and the law. After dozens of hearings and trials and so on, every single judge believed that her wishes were she did not want to live like that. Boom, there's one. Her choice. The second, the law. The law. Her parents followed every legal avenue, and even some unconstitutional ones, to keep her alive. The law saw her wish to not live this way, examined all possible facts, ruled against them. This is not about your morals, my morals, or even Michael's moral or her parents. This is not about religion. It does not enter into the law. It is not allowed to entered into legal proceedings. I am not trying to be cold, but the court's determined her wishes over seven years. More than one judge, more than one court, with multitudes of doctors, nurses, experts, all saying the same thing. The problem is that it's become about religion, and her soul, and so on. But, your religion, your beliefs, don't rule everyone. They are not all the same. That's why there is separation of church and state. That is why there is freedom of religion in this country. Freedom of choice. That's what is was founded on. That's what we fled from persecution from when we decided to set foot here. Your religion, their religion, no religion or morality can be legislated. It does, yes, of course, to a degree. Because morality is obvious in some cases. But too subjective in others.
Law does not stem from principle. That is just another word for morality. Law stems from precedent, objectivity, fairness, justice. It fails, true, but it's the best we've got. It is supposed to be neutral to your Christianity and my Buddhism. That's the deal. We both get a fair shot. As far as her soul, if it must come down to that, if it is in her body, then she is trapped in there. Unable to communicate, have any life whatsoever. Unable to do anything at all. Life at any cost is cruel and unhumane. That's why we put animals to sleep when they suffer. That's why my step-Mom removed a feeding tube from her Dad with end stage Alzheimers. There are many stories like that. If her soul is there, she is suffering silently. If not, she is a shell. NO one knows, not even you, Ms. Almighty. You are so judgmental, that I think what you need to be praying for tonight to your god, is for forgiveness and tolerance. You have heaped hatred and cruelty on people here over a story that isn't even yours. Jimmy points out that the bible even says "judge not lest ye be judged." It's not your job to judge us all. Listen, disagree, make your point, fine. But you have been downright mean and ugly. And you don't even know what people's stories are, why they feel like they do. I have a very personal connection to why I feel this way that I haven't shared, in regards to letting Terri die in peace.
The main point is this, this is about the choice....we know hers....and the law....it's played out. Either place her soul is, it's time to let her go. It's not for you to decide.
Sorry empty_handed_painter for the book here.....I didn't intend this to be so long.
posted by
Temple
on March 28, 2005 at 9:13 PM
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Your post is well written as are other's comments on this page I personally
do not, can not agree with the judgments you make of others. Who designated you as profound judge of how all others should live? Who is to say I am less intelligent than you? A test for intelligence can only measure as high as the person creating the test, yet this is how you are deciding what should be done. You are saying you know. You have never carried a being in your uterus for nine months. You can never know that. You can't know all the reasons for the parents not wanting to give her up. I simply do not understand anyone on earth who would walk away from their child or parent without taking the best care they could. That is all they want. It is not like she had a tube that provided breath. I cannot accept your saying that if it were you you would want to go. Nobody can prove that. Your state of life is not in that place. You are doing harm. You should not speak of sin, something that has to be balanced with righteousness in order to derive a definition. You do not understand righteousness.
posted by
Justi
on March 28, 2005 at 4:07 PM
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further...
Christians believe in the resurrection of the body and it's reunion with the soul.
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 28, 2005 at 3:33 PM
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OK all you theologians and philosophers
How do you know where her soul is? How does her rational soul morph into a vegetative one, changing it's essence. You all get so peaved when you think Christians and others are foisting their philosophies on others and yet, here you are doing it.
E.H.P. , that is not what Christians believe about the body. In Christianity the body is regarded as a temple which houses an immortal soul. The soul or life force animates the body. The body has no animation without the presence of the soul. When the body withers(even when there are efforts at life support) the soul has left or is close to leaving the body. No one knows precisely when this occurs. For this reason human tradition and the laws in this country err on the side of life,they give life the benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise is slide down a dangerous, slippery slope.
The so-called pro-life agenda is one that sees law as stemming from principle, not extenuating circumstances. Respect life human life in all it's forms.
You are sitting in judgment of her parent's motives. You judge the motives and actions of those who believe this starvation is murder. (Remember, she is not dying from being in a persistent vegetative state. She would have continued living. She is dying because she has no food and water. As would we all if we were denied these necessities.) You claim to know life's beginning and end. You better than it's adherents what the tenets of Christianity are. And you call us sinners. D'souza was right: The American Left is a nest of hypocrites
posted by
AnCatubh
on March 28, 2005 at 3:32 PM
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there is no perso nthere
and yet the body -- the flesh that is no more than animal instinct -- is there -- why should it be there if nothing else is there
has anyone ever seen a puppy or other animal so broken up that it can no longer function and you look at it and you know that you have to do something? have you agreed with a vet who says the animal has no chance of living well and should be euthanized?
I see very little difference --
posted by
Xeno-x
on March 25, 2005 at 2:31 PM
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DM -- it's like I told Kooka in a comment on one of his posts
you say she's undergoing "sustained torture" -- similar words to Kooka, but in the next breath he said that she felt nothing and had a head full of dead cells. Which is it? Is she able to feel? Or is she being tortured? You cannot have it both ways.
I recently cared for a 20 year old girl with severe cerebral palsy. She has been faithfully cared for by her parents. Her brain function is limited, her physical function almost non-existent. Many would think that she is either better off dead or in a nursing home, after all, she has little to offer, has to be fed through a PEG tube (like Terri's) and has to be cleaned and turned like a baby. Furthermore, she has infected bed sores! Of what value is her life? She has value because she has changed the lives of her parents and family forever. They have such empathy, compassion and love, whereas before they would never have fully understood the sufferings of others. They are walking in the shoes of suffering, and can now relate with compassionate empathy for the sufferings of others. Consequently, in caring for this pathetic 20 year old, they have been a blessing to many others. The value of this one seemingly useless life has had profound, exponential significance to many others.
I do not believe that God makes mistakes. Some of the extreme difficulties that people suffer can be turned into a blessing, albeit bitter sweet. Terri's life has purpose if only because, in providing care for her, others lives have been changed. We have become such a selfish "what's in it for me" culture that the thought of wasting health care dollars on someone with minimal function is anathema.
You are right -- Terri is not brain dead. I never stated that she was. But I was using that as a comparison to show that not only does she have a functioning brain stem (which a brain dead person would not have), but that I would venture to guess she has far more living cells than anyone would like to give her credit for. A PET scan would have documented this, but again, we'll never know.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on March 25, 2005 at 8:51 AM
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Jane -- You Subscribe To The Sadistic Culture of Torture
"I will always side with life and err on the side of life. I believe her soul is still with her and that her life has value."
Face it, rather than erring on the side of life, you prefer to err on the side of sustained torture just to buouy your sense of righteousness. I challenge you to produce one benefit that Terri might realize from your insistence that we prolong her torturous life? After all, it's really about what's best for Terri, right? And it's certainly NOT about using Terri Schiavo to boost how you feel good about your selfish convictions. Right?
DM
posted by
Dennison..Mann
on March 25, 2005 at 7:41 AM
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And you believe all that you hear on A and E and other programs like it? There's such a dichotomy of opinion, even between those who cared for her and evaluated her. Call me cruel, but I will always side with life and err on the side of life. I believe her soul is still with her and that her life has value.
I have cared for people who have traumatic brain injuries and who have been pronounced brain dead. Some facilities determine brain death by doing nuclear scans. One such pt of mine had that, and I accompanied her for the procedure. One could see the Circle of Willis, and how the blood flowed up the carotid arteries, but never hit the Circle of Willis and never went further into the brain. She was clearly brain dead and I believe her spirit was gone. I stayed with her as her organs were harvested from her body and donated to others.
You cannot say that of Terri. Over the years there has been more activity and life and involvement with her surroundings in that woman than, as your son has said, a "bunch of dead cells" could produce. It is you guys, feasting on your culture of death, who should be ashamed.
If a PET scan had been allowed by her **shole of a guardian husband, I believe we would have all been impressed with the amount of higher brain activity going on. Now we'll never know.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on March 25, 2005 at 7:15 AM
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Painter,
If only the religious zealots who think they are doing a "service" to Terri would listen to words like these. Unfortunately, when presented with the facts of the case (like the FACT that Terri is NOT in that body!), they run away with their thumbs in their ears, going "Na-na-na-na!"
posted by
myrrhage_
on March 25, 2005 at 6:57 AM
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