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Gome
Because you said it was something that you “do not have time for at this particular moment”. Typically when I work on something like that I reduce it to writing so if I ever need it then I can go and get it and paste or e-mail it where I like. I suppose I was thinking that you might consider doing the same thing, now that you’re retired. Of course, it may be that you simply prefer not to share it, and I suppose I can understand your reluctance to lay it all out here for someone like me to read. After all, then you’d have all the bother of justifying yourself to yourself after reading my responses. Much easier and safer to just let it lay, huh?
posted by
telemachus
on March 21, 2005 at 2:56 PM
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Odysseus -- why would you work on the assumption that I have not?
More than that, my retirement was predicated by a number of reasons, many of which that included things I believe.
posted by
gomedome
on March 20, 2005 at 7:50 AM
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Gome
Well, now that you’ve retired, what better time than now to review your “belief system”?
posted by
telemachus
on March 20, 2005 at 7:16 AM
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Odysseus -- I've just retired from being a sales manager
Hence the light treatment of speaking untruths. A few postings back I did cover some portions of my own personal belief system. Describing it in detail is something I do not have time for at this particular moment. All I can say is that the first 20 years of my life were very tough years, little did I realize that the strengths drawn from those years have made my adult life a cakewalk. It is as if I have an unfair advantage over everyone else. I have to go now but will post later this evening with a bit of luck.
posted by
gomedome
on March 18, 2005 at 1:58 PM
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Gome
Sadly, it seems I’ve succeeded in garnering more of your faith in me than in God. You had inquired about motive and so I laid it out honestly for you. Even though you’re probably right that option #3 is not really possible, it needed to be stated so that my full motivation could be understood from your perspective. Anyway, hey, I laid it all on the line for you. That’s certainly no lie. Lying is an abomination that you should take no glee in self-professing. The concept of the truth is in fact the concept that will ultimately lead to the recognition of God (consult Gandhi). So, are you going to tell me about your “path” or not?
posted by
telemachus
on March 18, 2005 at 12:22 PM
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Odysseus -- I prefer to use "deluded bliss is bliss nonetheless"
it has enough humour in it that the other person is less likely to be insulted. I was going to call your last comment progress as well and I do agree with what you are saying about ongoing dialogue but you managed to crack me up with your last few words. When you say " .....or (3) abandon my own to achieve it." ...just who do you think you are talking to my son? Didn't your mother ever tell you to never lie to a liar?
When someone proposes something as preposterous as this, it would on the surface suggest that the individual making this statement is very unsure of their own set of beliefs but keep in mind the opening paragraph of this blog posting. The part where I speak of discernable patterns that can be seen in online dialogue determining an individual's motives. This suggestion is preposterous because both you and I know that they'll be playing hockey in hell before you ever waiver in the belief of God's existence which is central to your persona. People also very rarely convert to other belief systems, regardless of what some are willing to put forth, conversion is a very miniscule percentage of people entering any faith system or organized religion.
So this tells me that you have added this last statement as a salesman's feint, a classic bait and switch. Nice try but if you are going to lie to people to conceal your motives you simply have to improve on your lies.
Improving on your lies is something I may be able to help you with...ha ha ha.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2005 at 7:24 PM
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Gome
I think that when people exchange messages they mutually progress. When you return a credible response to my message, as you most often do, it serves the purpose (on my end) of helping me understand where cracks may exist in the infrastructure of my arguments or where my position may require amendment. The result of such interaction is the stimulus for much more sharper and penetrating concepts than would occur in solitude or with a less equipped adversary.
You may very well feel satisfied with your situation until exposed to a deeper challenge. How do they say, “Ignorance is bliss”! For the individual genuinely devoted to achieving transcendent goodness, any opportunity to move to the next level should be extremely appealing. Hence, the reasoning for the motivation you question.
If we become insulated in our ways. If we achieve transcendence without communicating it and transmitting it, we muddle the progress of the good. I want you to outline your “path” for me so that I may do one of the following: (1) help you off of it, (2) help you hone it into an even better concept, or (3) abandon my own to achieve it.
posted by
telemachus
on March 17, 2005 at 4:54 PM
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Well Odysseus -- we'll call the first few lines of your comment progress
When one stops to give it some thought, what other reasons are there for insisting that another individual needs to hear your message? ("Your" implying you in general terms and not specifically you) Can you think of another reason that would compel an individual to be so persistent about sharing their insights? It always comes back to the same two reasons. One person has deemed another deficient in their outlook and that same person feels justified because they believe they have God on their side. God equates with good in most people's minds, the next step to self righteous justification of one's actions in the promotion of this mindset is but a micro-step.
When you say "It’s not that I don’t respect your beliefs and opinions, it’s that I want to feel convinced that you’ve considered certain things, that’s all." .......have you ever asked yourself why this is necessary for you? Necessary to be concerned about the beliefs of others whom you do not know? My attitude towards such things is decidedly different. I say: more power to any individual if they have found something that works for them, carry on bucko and don't take any wooden nickels. That is the level of personal concern I have for the disposition of the inner self and the spiritual well being of others. When one chooses to lead by example and adopt a mindset of complete personal responsibility, the focus is entirely shifted to getting your own house in order, lining up your own ducks. There is no escaping the mirror or self examination must be perpetual, however one chooses to put it. If one is truly examining themselves in an effort to make themselves better then the realization that we all have a major project on our hands in this effort should preclude any notion of meddling with the spiritual well being of others. A person truly reflecting on spiritual improvement should be just too damn busy fixing their own problems.
This leads right into your last point or question when you say: "I’m baffled by your contention that you feel your particular path to be so unique that no other person could ever follow it." I never actually said "no other person" ..I did say "most people". This has nothing to do with my beliefs at all but more to do with human nature and the way the human minds works. It is very difficult to purge one's mind of deep rooted religious inlfuence, it is ongoing and takes an enormous mental discipline. Simply, "most people" do not have the necessary mental discipline to do this but think about how the world would change if everyone just worried about their own salvation? It would almost have to be a better place than it is today.
posted by
gomedome
on March 17, 2005 at 11:17 AM
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Gome - I didn't intend to disrupt your postings -
I hear what you’re saying loud and clear with regard to the feeling that you get; the feeling that I somehow have the opinion that you’re lacking or deficient somehow. And I guess, truly, I do harbor this opinion somewhat, but it’s not, as you say, simply because you do not share my beliefs. It’s more because I think there is something that you may have not yet considered; something that I simply want you to take a look at.
I sometimes get the feeling that you’re too resolved to your particular mindset and that your conclusions may be foresworn in a particular direction. It’s not that I don’t respect your beliefs and opinions, it’s that I want to feel convinced that you’ve considered certain things, that’s all.
It delights me that you recall my affinity for Mahatma Gandhi and I suppose you must be alluding to his support of religious tolerance, with which I’m certainly in agreement. You must admit, exhibiting such tolerance would similarly necessitate some abatement in your attacks against Christianity. Admittedly though, it’s something we both could work on.
I’m baffled by your contention that you feel your particular path to be so unique that no other person could ever follow it. I would listen very attentively if you felt inclined to explain this. I’ve never ever heard anyone contend such a thing before and find it extremely interesting.
posted by
telemachus
on March 17, 2005 at 9:00 AM
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