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void-is. You're welcome. A comment from Benzinha makes my day
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 25, 2005
at
12:36 PM
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Wow, Benzinha, that's a great comment. Very well presented...
sorry for butting in here, Beach... ;-)
posted by
void-is
on
January 25, 2005
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12:31 PM
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bb, we are spoken to here in America, by our 'speakers', in a voice that
exudes superiority, has a touch of sadness in it to express our understanding and sympathy for 'inferior others' who misunderstand our superior magnanimity and with the sorrow, deep and profound, of being the "Chosen".
We Americans do wonderful things for each other, the earth and others, and fail to realize that other nations are full of similarly wonderful humanity. Our leaders try, with the help of the press, to save us from the 'slings and arrows of outrageous foreign press' by not covering stories from other nations about our citizens, our actions in the exterior which others despise, our failure to sign treaties and comply with globally agreed upon contracts, etc. signed by every other 'lower quality' nation on earth.
There is a filter which sits on the coasts of America and removes these things from our sight, our hearing, and our being. We cannot then understand the world, because we then only know our own opinions, thoughts, beliefs, plans and we are then taught that what we do is fabulous and what others say is either misinformed, prejudiced or spoken out of irrational vicious hatred.
Our parents are just trying to protect us, I think is the phrase that applies. And we know what happens to over-protected children when they hit the real world, it hits them back, unexpectedly, as they are clueless about their true environment. May the many gods of earth help us all......we need it.
posted by
benzinha
on
January 25, 2005
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12:27 PM
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Exstud
I think you meant to address me. I don't think I can add anything to that
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 25, 2005
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10:28 AM
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Sassyass
Sassyass, often "their methods" are oppressive and brutal, "their" being despotic regimes; that's the crucial issue about aiding democratic movements abroad. The people in an oppressed country do not have sovereignty; if they could vote in a free election, they would choose a government that would represent them more adequately; and yes, they would certainly not vote to have an American government rule them if they could have a native government instead.
But it's not always an either-or choice; I think we can both actively assist other countries in gaining true sovereignty -- true meaning not to justify non-intervention on grounds that we are respecting a nation's sovereignty, since the sovereignty of a brutal despot is not popular sovereignty at all -- and allow democratic governance to arise from within the nation we are dealing with. But this does require a certain degree of state-building from the outside until the nation develops its own institutions for statecraft and defense.
Nations who have long been deprived popular sovereignty cannot be expected to turn toward self-governance overnight; this was the foolish expectation of the neocons in the White House. But nor can they be expected to develop self-governance without a mediating force from the outside, if for no other reason than to have a sort-of neutral third-party mediate disputes among different ethnic tribes, when a lack of mediation could lead to civil war.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on
January 25, 2005
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9:05 AM
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Sassyass
I don't think it can be everyone's truth.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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2:57 PM
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Why would anyone oppose the truth?
You have written this beautifilly and unfortunately with truth backing up every word.
posted by
sassyass_64
on
January 24, 2005
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2:34 PM
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I was somewhat surprised this post received no opposition
Thank you to all who commented
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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2:30 PM
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Sassyass
Thank you. It is the "if you are not with us, you are against us" thing which is so divisive and unneccessarily so. Other countries must heed their own drummer - their own people not the administration from another land.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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11:13 AM
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This is a great post
Your idea's about the US are pretty accurate. I believe that we have a real issue of meddling into others affairs. It would be different if we were asked to help out, but we insist on taking it upon ourselves to fight other countries because we do not like how they run it. Who are we to question their methods?
posted by
sassyass_64
on
January 24, 2005
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10:52 AM
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Thank you renigade3. Redlunar it is as if
democracy applies for some people when it is their own brand of democracy.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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10:38 AM
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beach,
excellent points...very clear and succint...I have always though the hypocrisy of democracy should be the topic of discussion for more people who call them selves "true" Americans. Great post...
red
posted by
redlunar
on
January 24, 2005
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10:28 AM
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void-is
I think listening to what they are hearing stumps many
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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10:27 AM
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Beach and Void--I agree with you both.
posted by
Renigade
on
January 24, 2005
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10:26 AM
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Justsouno
It is simply my response to what I hear .... it serves only to highlight the differences in interpretation.
Almost predictably all comments here have been from people whose observations have been similar which suggests that people who feel differently don't read anyone who takes a different line to them, or that they believe there is some truth in what I say and so do not wish to promote my by discussing it.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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10:25 AM
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Beach, the 'between the lines' stuff really stumps a lot of people...
I sense that 'reading' it is not taught in school anymore... :-)
posted by
void-is
on
January 24, 2005
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10:23 AM
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Void-is
People hear a message but don't think about the language and its meaning. I believe that many people do think about this but many more don't.
I am also aware too that even though the words may be meant that what falls between the line is equally important.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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10:20 AM
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Beach, some interesting points here. Your analysis (or pointing out)
of some of the language is right on the mark. Is it just me, or are there very few people out there that see and appreciate these points?
posted by
void-is
on
January 24, 2005
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8:19 AM
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I will have to digest much of this
Do you still hold your American citizenship?
posted by
Justi
on
January 24, 2005
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2:00 AM
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BTW, thanks for your encouragement
I would have to do a lot of research to write essays which I would consider up to scratch. I think the the discussion about about spreading democracy and how democracy and its implementing from within or without and in relation to a brutally oppressed people achieve democracy could be the subject of a book let alone an essay. Not for me of course.
Thank goodness the situation in the former Yugoslavia was not occurring now.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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1:12 AM
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Exstud
Speaking of Iraqi henchmen, I read that many people who worked in places in some way linked to the election, have felt forced to quit their jobs because of threats to their families. That is not very encouraging
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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1:01 AM
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writersjourney
indeed
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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12:58 AM
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Rovesciato
Good to see you. Yes not only are terrorists accorded this status but they mentality is to regard them as an enemy of the same kind as a nation. Sometimes there is more than one way to skin a cat
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 24, 2005
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12:57 AM
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i sometimes wonder if the various people in our government over the years understand the nature of international relations at all. the most telling aspect of our current group to me is that while obstinately refusing to recognize Iran for what it is, an established government capable of playing a significant role in world affairs, we have raised fringe characters, ie. terrorist groups, to a level of an aknowledged and established player, or so to say, we have given terrorist organizations a seat at the table. Great Brittan often didn't have to fight its battles to win them. i'm not sure that we as a nation are very often capable of the same.
posted by
rovesciato
on
January 24, 2005
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12:44 AM
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Yes, or if the Hutus or Tutsis had oil.
posted by
writersjourney
on
January 23, 2005
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11:04 PM
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Briefly Exstud but I will reply in full later - re Rwanda
There are a few cases like this where it was scandalous that no intervention came - if the Hutus or Tutsis had lobbied a missile at the US they might have been helped.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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8:22 PM
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Beachbelle, but a very important 10 percent; that's better than in 2002's election in Iraq, when Mr. Hussein got a whopping 100 percent of the vote (I probably would have voted for him too if I had been filling out the ballot with his henchmen looking over my shoulder!).
Anyhow, I think you've got good ideas here. Expound on them, though. You have enough for several extensive essays. I especially like the idea about spreading democracy and how democracy has to evolve and not be imposed from without. This subject is promising.
I would ask questions such as how do a brutally oppressed people achieve democracy, or any form of popular sovereignty, without outside help? And doesn't that help have to come in the form of troops if it is to be truly effective? And how does the international community adjudicate the legitimacy and legality of such interventions, if they are to take place?
If President Clinton had relied on a U.N. mandate for the fight against Milosevic, the "ethnic cleansing" would have gone unabated; Mr. Clinton knew that Russia would veto a resolution to fight Milosevic, so the President went through NATO and defeated Milosevic that way. In such cases, it would seem that unilateral intervention is superior to multilateral (non)action.
And what does imposing America's will mean when that imposition involves fighting a regime that systematically imposes its brutal will on its people, depriving them sovereignty and basic human rights? I think it would have been a very good idea to "impose our will" on Rwanda instead of allow over half a million people to be slaughtered.
posted by
Dyl_Pickle
on
January 23, 2005
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8:15 PM
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Ariala
I think my comment might have sounded like I thought I knew how to write political columns. I would like to clarify that I know what it takes and therefore know that I could never do it to that level
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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7:23 PM
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ARGUS
Thanks. I found it stirred something in me which I could not hold in.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
7:21 PM
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Ariala
Thank you for your kind comment - watch out, people will suspect we get on! This post expresses what I feel and think - gut reactions, nothing more and when we do that we always feel like we are exposing our weaknesses.
I used to edit the work of some of the best poltical columnists (of all persuasions) in the business and consequently I know what it takes to write in that way. I long since decided that I should read the experts rather than try to follow them.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
4:30 PM
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Beach, Well-done antidote
to our leader's ethnocentric, chauvinistic, messianic inauguration speech.
posted by
ARGUS
on
January 23, 2005
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4:10 PM
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Beach, I won't comment on the fact that I agree with this, but on the
fact that you tackled a political post. Kudos for trying something new for you, or new for me to read by you. You did well.
posted by
Ariala
on
January 23, 2005
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4:04 PM
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QuirkyAlone
Then I'll be sorry. ...... No I think it is interesting to see what happens when you write something outside of your normal topic. I do comment on a few political blogs but sometimes I find the responses patronizing as if to say, "leave this to us men".
I know my view is simplistic to them but I do read good publications and think about these things a great deal. I find that much of what is presented as political analysis is self-important and verbose. I used to edit the work of a lot of political columnists and even among those there was some impenetrable stuff and breath-taking arrogance and just a few who stoood apart. I am under no illusions that I could do it. That is why blogs are great because it is a place to express ourselves.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
2:25 PM
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Kingmi
The premise for starting the conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq had nothing to do with liberation of those societies. The first was to try to get rid of Osama Bin Laden and the second was to prevent Iraq from employing WMD (which it didn't have).
Many of us are concerned that the quest to bring liberty and the spread of democracy to these so-called "outposts of tyranny" is just another name for more wars like those visited Afghanistan and Iraq.
Not only that, I refer again to one of the thoughts behind my post that America and Americans have convinced themselves that just because the rest of the world does not share their enthusiams for these campaigns that they are all against the US. People should try to look from the outside in.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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2:13 PM
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They will be pushing 50 before ya know it!
posted by
Julia.
on
January 23, 2005
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2:02 PM
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QuirkyAlone
Yes it seems they have added up a bit now ...sorry
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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1:56 PM
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Okay Beachbelle, you do have many comments, how is that considered "staying away in droves" as you just said in my comments???!!!
P.S. I'm not going to comment further because I have a "no politics or religion" rule.
posted by
Julia.
on
January 23, 2005
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1:30 PM
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beach, weak cultures respond to bullies by capitualtion. Strong countries
help them, without being asked. Does this constitute dictatorship in your eyes? What could those poor women in Afghanistan do in the face of the Nazi Taliban? Now they are voting and being educated. Same case in Iraq. Yet now -- in spite of daily bombings and other distractions, millions of Iraquis are working, registering to vote, hoping to be able to better feed their families. No one has dictated language, dress code, religion. Only constitutional democracy, and they wrote their own loosely modeled after ours. I cannot see how this offends anyone. To me it is an inspiration!
posted by
kingmi
on
January 23, 2005
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1:20 PM
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Terrific post!
posted by
Original_Influence
on
January 23, 2005
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1:16 PM
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Ginnieb
Thanks for reading and commenting ....it always feels odd when people say "Amen" to me ;-).
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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11:51 AM
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Amen Beachbelle...
...I share your thoughts completely!
posted by
ginnieb
on
January 23, 2005
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11:42 AM
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Thank you Symphony
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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11:36 AM
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Ginnieb
I think you only have to spend time in many countries to see that people feel equally passionate about their own country and lifestyle and yet they don't expect to convert great swathes of the world to their view and ways. Nor do they believe that everyone is out to get them. That previous sentence is where people who disagree with me would claim I am naive. But there is equal if not more danger in many parts of the world. There will always be situations which require ongoing management. It seems naive to me that people imagine that blitzing places with military action will solve anything any time soon.
There is a perception that everyone is either clamoring to be part of, or hates the US and are a threat. Most people just want to live their lives. This position that "if you are not with us, you are against us" is deeply polarizing. And it leaves many who don't share this black and white view of world at best bemused and at worst despairing of commonsense.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
11:35 AM
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posted by
_Symphony_
on
January 23, 2005
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11:27 AM
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Rachelanna
There is no denying there is hypocrisy as you mention. The other type of hypocrisy is the condemning of some regimes and their actions on one hand and the amount of investment in their resources and in selling weapons and military hardware on the other
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
11:01 AM
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Very good...
..and it's very interesting living in this country, particularly at this time. I was never a political creature at all until I moved here. While I must keep reminding myself that I am a guest here I do have very strong views and it is amazing to talk to people who truly believe that this country is superior to the rest of the world. While there are some wonderful things done in this country there are also major flaws which cannot and should not be overlooked. While no country can claim even close to perfection, a little less arrogance here would help. (And I'm not in any way saying all Americans are this way.) I do, however, miss my country like crazy.
posted by
ginnieb
on
January 23, 2005
at
10:33 AM
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Yuppers...
I agree with much of what you wrote here. What I find disturbing and a bit odd is that a lot of countries turn to the US for aide in a variety of ways, but then turn the other way and roll their eyes about our policies and such.
I agree that the US has some serious issues, but hate the hypocritical nature in which they are pointed out by some. Then again, politics is not my thing and while I am a US resident (and proud to be) I am not deluded into thinking that we have some perfect nation. Not by a long shot.
Great post.
posted by
RachelAnna
on
January 23, 2005
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8:38 AM
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Indeed.
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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3:22 AM
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Good Observations
Kinda hard to imagine that we fancy ourselves as a role-model for democracy given the 102 page Conyers investigative report on systematic voter suppression in Ohio. We should turn our attention to voting rights in the US before we lecture the rest of the world on the topic.
posted by
writersjourney
on
January 23, 2005
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3:11 AM
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Katray
You raise a good point. It is true that some wars are promoted and run by those who lurk in the shadows
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
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2:14 AM
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Kingmi
I would not put money on that given all the small wars over territory over the ages. But really what I am thinking about is why the US regards itself as the sole arbiter of democracy and does not appreciate that the rest of the world does not necessarily call on the US to spread democracy
posted by
beachbelle
on
January 23, 2005
at
2:12 AM
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Excellent post Beach
You liberal leaner you! I couldn't agree more, as you would probably suspect. And the U.S. HAS funded, armed, aided and abetted overthrows of democratically elected governments - remember Haiti less than a year ago? Latest chapter in a very long book...
posted by
PoetRaye
on
January 22, 2005
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11:31 PM
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beachbelle, No democratic country has ever attacked another!
posted by
kingmi
on
January 22, 2005
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10:24 PM
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