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Thanks, Mr. Painter,
for your input. Your comments are always welcome, and I shall try to quitmybellyachin'. Have a good week!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 25, 2005 at 4:53 PM
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reading all this stuff
of course I have to come down on the side of Kooka, since he's my son.
not just because he's my son.
first, I haven't seen any sign of disrespect here.
I see him debating.
I guess you guys have never really been disrespected.
here's the ting
he's questioning
but i don't see where you are answering his specific questions
I don't know if you can.
you already accept that you are right and you express from the direction
you've already come to the conclusion without delineating the logic leading to that conclusion.
"faith is evidence"
come on -- put forth your evidence -- this is the best time.
quitchurbellyachin
and
begin reasoning
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 25, 2005 at 3:29 PM
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now, of course, if Kooka IS searching
I would like ot think that I would influence him and not too many others
but that's his Dad speaking.
his Father says he has to go his own way and seek and discover
we all do that
we all "see through a glass, darkly"
but too many of think we see and know all there is to see and know
let us seek
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 25, 2005 at 3:22 PM
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hate to mess you up, Jane
but the historical accuracy of the Bible is very disputed.
it is only the later kings -- Ahab is one -- Hezekiah is another -- those that were directly affected by Egypt and Assyria and Babylonia and are mentioned in hieroglyphs and cunieform and stela. These are the only ones that have been mentioned outside of the Old Testament histories.
much else is either not proven by external discoveries or is disputed -- dates of Joshua, etc. The Exodus.
The only mention of David outside of the OT is a stela found in the Jordan Valley -- mentions the "House of David" -- some scholars dispute that this means regal lineage -- most, though, feel that it does -- but it is an artifact produced hundreds of years after when King David is reported by the OT to have existed.
It is only the period of the Assyrian and Babylonian conquests and afterward that can definintely be validated by exterior sources (one earlier Egyptian document mentions "the Land of Israel", however).
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 25, 2005 at 3:19 PM
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Whoa is me, Kooka,
you sound so full of pathos. Actually, like I've been saying for quite some time, you and I converse on different wave lengths. Your idea of respect and mine are obviously quite different. Because I am intolerant of sin, you are intolerant of my ideas. Your idea of tolerance and mine are totally different. You desire tolerance of sin (which you doubt is truly sin) and I desire tolerance for the sinner -- with intolerance towards sin. No wonder the two cannot meet.
You don't want me visiting your blogs -- that's too bad. I enjoy a good debate, although I realize ours frequently turn into mud slinging matches. You asked me to show you where in your posts you have been disrespectful of me. Someday I will search and find because there are several instances. Quite frankly, though, I'm not into beating a dead horse and it's obviously dead as far as you're concerned.
So all that remains to say is God-speed. I wish you well!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 23, 2005 at 8:33 PM
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Now this has gotten funny
Somewhere it went from being about respect ot being about me not believing in God. Have no idea why the two are connected, but I think that say an awful lot about how some Christians very the world.
Obviously any here who think I do not show respect because of my views are being about as prejudice as possible. They have already decided that because I CAN NOT believe in their God that I am some how disrespect in general. A belief in God has nothing at all to do with respect as a whole.
And PastorB, if you wish to prove me wrong you do have to present proof that I am wrong. Just saying I am wrong does not prove anything. I have proven every single claim I have made. You claim I am wrong, yet have never once provide a single bit of proof for your claim.
Of course no one here seems to care about that. I am just an atheist and so certain Christians who really are no better than Christians of the past who found everything in sight to discriminate against have done. Atheists and homosexuals are really the politically correct groups that you can discriminate against and so that is who you go after. Fifty years ago it would have been black and women. And right now Muslims seem to be growing. We had communist of course. And then there were the Jews. All in all by showing that you wish to keep discrimination alive you really are showing just how Christians you can be.
It is sad that for all of your preaching about love and such, you really only believe you have to show it to those who are just like you. Anyone else you claim to love but never show it.
Well I show respect in general. There ar many Christian hereon Blogit I do have great respect for. It is not because they are or are not Christian, btu because they have earned it by showing they do not discriminate. They are willing to be rational and show respect.
I keep recommend to PastorB that we should just ignore each other full since that is the only time we can get along. I am now recommend that to Janes a well. You stay away from my posts and I shall stay away from yours. We will not talk about each other and just pretend the other does not exists. I am very tired of trying to show respect when none is being given back to me.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 22, 2005 at 6:09 PM
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Thanks, Rachel --
I certainly don't plan on losing my faith over jabs from Kooka. I must remind myself that when I get argumentative I merely end up beating my head against a brick wall. It does no good to continue duking it out with someone as polarized as myself. Thanks for visiting!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 22, 2005 at 4:38 PM
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I guess we all have our own beliefs...
And, that's cool. It's when we try to tell people who believe differently than ourselves that they're wrong that we run into trouble...
I guess you just have to keep believing and not bother with anyone who challenges you! 
posted by
RachelAnna
on January 22, 2005 at 2:22 PM
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Very good points, Justso
thanks for your comments.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 22, 2005 at 1:24 PM
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Jane
As I said in my post on Saints, Sinners and Tares. Some are tares, they are the seed of the evil planter, they are plants. They will never see, understand or come to Christ. They are best allowed to grow up and go down. They are about the business of their father. Many think I am too hard and crass. I am not God, but I endeavor to understand His Word and it can not be understood without the comforter, teacher that dear Holy Spirit. We have many on here who are false prophets. Jude says use care we don't get pulled into their stuff when we are trying to snatch them out of the fire. He used a different dialect. LOL
posted by
Justi
on January 22, 2005 at 12:05 PM
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Amen Taps,
don't know why I bother attempting. Thanks for your visit.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 21, 2005 at 9:03 PM
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Tapsel is so right.
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 7:29 PM
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JanesO - You will never be able to prove to kooka's satisfaction anything about God. Only God can prove it to him and in His own time.
posted by
TAPS.
on January 21, 2005 at 7:26 PM
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why should I bother kooka, we've been through it a 100 times. Why waste
my time on it anymore with you? You get the amount of respect you dish out and the serving size that you dish out is not enough to feed a bird, so why should I make an effort any more than I already have?
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 1:33 PM
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PastorB
What a great way you showed of not addressing any of the real issues but instead just trying to discredit me through BS. Yes it is so horrible for me to address what you say issue for issues and point out my side using facts. All you have to do is say a few words to try and discredit all I wrote and you feel as though you proved your point.
What a concpet of 'respect' you seem to have.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 21, 2005 at 1:25 PM
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oh brother Kooka!! You have such a gift for taking a load
of crap and trying to sculpture it into a thing of art that it amazes me! Geez, do I feel sorry for you. Now go ahead, write another 8 paragraphs or so on that one. As if the more you talk the more it makes it so.
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 1:20 PM
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Janes
You claim I insult. Please tell me what insults have I made.
Is it when I ask for proof to back up your views? How is that insulting?
Nasty comments?
Are you talking about when I defend myself by stating facts and showing you where you have made a mistake?
I had to give this same challenge to .PastorB many times in the past now and she has yet to provide me with any example so all the horrible things I have said about her, and yet I do not delete any of my comments or posts. Her claim was it was all in posts she deleted, it was very convenient for her. Go through and find where I am doing this and point it out to me. If you look at any of our exchanges it has been you who has been making the nasty and insulting comments towards me.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 21, 2005 at 1:12 PM
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PastorB
I have never called you an idiot. I may have said something you said was idiotic, but that is not the same thing.
I have never attacked you directly. You claim I attack you be stating my views on God and religion, yet that is no more attacking you than you stating your views is attacking me. i wish I had time to go back and find where all this started. All of my old posts are still up if anyone ever wishes to read through my comments to find what has been said between us. I already know that it has general been you coming in calling me 'ignorant' and such and me trying to state my case using facts and you telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. Very often I have replied to your insulting and discrediting with politeness and you have gone and kept the insults flying.
I have never said anything even close to insulting about your husband. I think I did mention once how it was interesting at how quickly he would jump on and agree with you and make comments saying everyone was backing you up and such, but I have never made any comments that could be considered insulting towards him.
I may have said I do not agree with your parenting skill and pointed out why that is so. But that is no mare challenging them than you challenge mine by telling me my way is wrong.
In fact it seems that you take any disagreement to be a challenge against you. if someone tells you they do not agree and give facts as to why they do not agree you figure they are insulting you.
As for the liar thing, I am not allowed to talk about it here. The most I should be able to get away with saying is that if any such claims were made by me it was because I had proof to back up such claims and no proof was ever given against my claims.
Pleasure remember that you were the one who started to write e-mails to me telling me how wrong I was and how lost I was and then claimed I was attacking and harassing you because I would respond to those e-mails. Also you were the one who blocked me during a month period of time after I had not left any comments to you or made any mention of you in my posts for some time. Then you unblock me (Which was the first time I knew I had been blocked) I then try ot leave you a few polite comments and you go off claiming I am mocking and attacking you again and just could not wait to go after you of course this was a week or so after you unblocked me).
This 'derogatory statement' you are referring to, is it the one I made in response to you saying "Kind of detracts from any level of intelligence you are trying to display." or when you said "SUCK
MY BIG TOE!" or " May you take a trip to South America and be visited by a vandellia cirrhosa and two of his closest friends."
Or was it where you said "One could clearly say that Kooka himself has been told what to think, merely due to his upbringing." Which clearly showed you had no clue at all about my upbringing and were attempting to insult my family in general.
Not sure where any of that would qualify as an attempt by you to have 'an intelligent, mature conversation' with me.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 21, 2005 at 1:04 PM
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Janes, the expression; "you're welcome at my fire anytime" is an old
cowboy expression. You can dig in the dirt, gather chicken eggs, milk a goat, butcher a rabbit, or sit at night and see a bazillion stars like you could reach out and touch them, anything your little heart desires!
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 11:32 AM
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My belief will be changes by no one but me....
my tolerance lies not towards sin but sinners....I have no choice there..
posted by
Original_Influence
on January 21, 2005 at 11:24 AM
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Junior High?
Sounds like grown ups haven't changed a whole lot, eh?
Actually, I don't want to sit by the fire side, I'd like to get my hands in the dirt and help you garden. It's 18 degrees outside with a stiff breeze coming off the lake so who knows what the wind chill factor is. I'm dreaming of spring and all the tulips I've planted. . . . .
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 21, 2005 at 11:18 AM
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OMGosh, you're a peace-nik too?!
I know. These people here have no idea what I'm like in "real life", but they sure jump at the chance to make false assumptions about it. Reminds me a lot of junior high. You know, when people who didn't even know you would make up stupid rumors about you just to have something to talk about. If they couldn't dig up any dirt on you, they'd just make up some. Tsk. Tsk.
You're welcome at my fire anytime!
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 11:03 AM
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Yeah, Brenda,
it would seem my name's being taken in vain, for the most part. If people only knew what a peace-nik I am in real life. Oh well, makes life more interesting!
Next trip out to AZ, I'll be emailing you!!!!!!!!! God bless, Brenda!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 21, 2005 at 10:53 AM
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geez JanesO, your name keeps popping up in all kinds of
posts around here lately! Don't tell me you're turning into one of those "controversial" bloggers?!
;-)
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 10:33 AM
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Aw Janes!!! That's so nice of you to say! I'll miss you too!
But at least I'll be seeing you soon!
And btw, you know I was serious about that invite to you and Justso.
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 9:54 AM
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Funny, PastorB
but I've noticed the same. Like I've been saying for quite some time, there's a double standard here. He somehow thinks that his insults are respectful. I'll never get it. You try to be nice, but you get your hand whacked. You reach a point where you think you're making progress, having a good debate and bamm -- all of a sudden get knocked off your feet with nasty comments. But all done respectfully or so he claims. Well, thanks for your friendship and support. Blogit won't be the same without you!
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 21, 2005 at 9:44 AM
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JanesO, boy ain't that the truth!
I've been doing this for two years and haven't changed anyones mind, but I didn't set out to so I guess there was no loss there. But it is sad isn't it?
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 9:15 AM
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oh PLEAZZZZZZZ Kooka, wake up from this deluded
alternative reality you live in!!! Shall we go down memory lane again? You were the one who verbally attacked me with calling me an idiot, trying to discredit everything I said, insulting me, my husband, my parenting skills and then lets not forget your slander and defamation of character in calling me a liar on more than one occasion. I took all that crap from you for a long time and finally got to the point that I gave you a dose of your own medicine in being just as disrespectful to you as you were first to me. And then I even tried to write civil comments to you that were not rude or "name calling" at all, because I was making another attempt at having an intelligent, mature conversation with you, and what did you do? You turned that venomous tongue of yours right around and opened your response comments with a derogatory statement at me when there was no due cause.
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 8:57 AM
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Thanks PastorB
But it's not like my blog has changed any minds. We're all in the trenches . . . on different planets, it would seem. Kooka and his buddies see things one completely different way, and you and I and other Christians here on Blogit see things an entirely different way. . . . and never the two shall meet. I'm into compromise, but not on the important principles, so I guess things will just remain as is.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 21, 2005 at 8:56 AM
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PastorB
So you are saying that you calling me names, insulting me at every turn, out right attacking every aspect of my life with no facts to back you claims up and just being childish in trying to discredit through trivial means is showing respect? I have done none of that to you and I am sorry but I can not sink down to that level.
If that is what you see as showing respect, then I will be unable to do so.
Instead I shall keep on stating facts and pointing out just where you have made a mistakes or in some cases 'accidentally' said something that was not true. I shall always use facts to back up any claims I make and never pull something out of my a$$ and claim it to be true. I shall not call you names nor shall I make any insulting comments about your intelligence. I shall remain mature in any exchange between us. This is how I see respect.
You and Janes seem to be very much of the same mindset. It is very scary really. Niehter one of you wishes to listen to facts and logic. Both of you seem to be very comfortable in your self created blindness. I have shown you both much more respect than either of you have shown me in return.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 21, 2005 at 8:47 AM
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HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone else has confirmed what I've said about Kooka for months now!!!! I can't even begin to point out the HUNDREDS of times I have said something to him and he has turned around and said that I was not being respectful to him, when he's said such disrespectful things it was unbelieveable! He seems to DEMAND respect, but doesn't know the first thing about giving respect. Not to mention the fact that he has hundreds of times said that we (Christians) are just not listening to the facts, proof and all that mumbo jumbo he spews out. Plus we (Christians) are just spouting propaganda and so forth.
YOU GO GIRL!!!
posted by
PastorB
on January 21, 2005 at 7:48 AM
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Janes
Yes, you have born false witness. Otherwise You would stop defending certain leis and propaganda that are out there. Feel free to say you disagree with the homosexual lifestyle. I disagree with the homosexual lifestyle myself. But do not go and find nay bit of BS that is out there that spreads lies about them in order to try and justify them not being treated equal as the rest of society. Accepting lies as being the truth is no better than creating the lies to begin with. I care not if I agree with the lifestyle. You can point out you disagree and why you do, but one does not need to believe in lies and misinformation to defend their opinions. Your post is about respect after all and it shows no respect to anyone to allow yourself to spread misinformation just because it helps to back up your views. Honestly, if I saw Christians being treated the same way homosexual are being treated I would jump in and defend Christians rights. Right now though it is the Christians who are in the wrong, not the homosexuals. That is how you show true respect for others.
I have never said I proved Christianity wrong. That has never been my goal. I have proven various ideas represented by certain factions of Christianity to be wrong.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 21, 2005 at 7:37 AM
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Kooka,
I have not born false witness, nor have you proven Christianity to be wrong. As ever we're on different pages in this debate. In general I'd say you showed a little more restraint in your response than usual, and I'm impressed. Sort of.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 20, 2005 at 9:36 PM
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gypsy
Turning the other cheek is not really showing respect either though. As I keep trying to point out I enjoy a debate and I feel that debating views is a great way to get ideas out there. It is just as insulting at times to ignore ideas as it is to blindly follow them. One needs to listen and be aware and point out where mistakes are made in order to truly show respect. Respect is lost when one decides they just know better and do not need to explain themselves. If a person makes a claim then they need to be able to fully defend that claim and not take it personal if someone else can provide proof against it.
I have no problem with someone telling me I have it wrong, as long as they are able to provide proof of their claim. That shows respect.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 20, 2005 at 8:35 PM
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RAME
You seem to have no clue as to what I say. I am no more trying to provoke Christians than Christian are trying to provoke the rest of the world. I am merely spreading my beliefs and openly pointing out flaws in several aspects of the Christian faith. What I do is no different than what the Christians do in greater number and much more often, just with a differing view. In some ways I am the opposite side of the same coin. Although I must admit I do not reduce myself to lies and propaganda and attempts at discrediting. I can also admit when I am wrong.
I ask for proof because I have yet to see any form of proof on many of the issues I have been told I am wrong about. I have written whole post saying I am open to any proof that will show I am mistaken. Instead of providing proof I get people like Janes here telling me I am wrong and hateful, but give no proof that it is so.
Now I will admit I am searching. I already know that the God of eh Bible and the Bible itself are far from being the answer. I do figure that understanding faith in general better will help me to discover the greater truth. You would be surprised at how much can be learned by reading people trying to defend their beliefs and showing that they themselves are not really that aware of what it is they believe in.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 20, 2005 at 8:30 PM
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Janes
I discount nothing. I debate and am normally able to show the flaws in your augments. You really have yet ot come pout with facts to ever prove your point. Most of the time you just attempt to discredit me, as you are very clearly trying here. Lucky for you I shall not act as some Christians Bloggers do and cry about this. I shall instead go point for point on where you are wrong.
I do show respect. I have yet to lie to you or attempt to discredit you. with some trivial thing. I present facts and state them openly.
I have admitted that he Bible is as historically accurate as any other mythology. General myths are created around actual events. The book the Red Badge of Courage is very historically accurate, yet we are very much aware that it is fiction. It is more historically accurate than the Bible is in fact. Just because a book has a few historically accurate references does not mean the whole thing should be taken as fact.
The archeological finds are inconclusive. Doing research on Noah's Ark I found several different sites where they have found it now. Guess what? They can all be Noah's Ark now can they? People are trying really hard to find archeological items of the Bible, but have yet to find something that can be absolutely proven to be a true artifact mentioned in the Bible. Most of that is just people wanting to find something so bad that they will stretch the true nature of the artifact to fit with what they wish it to be.
Self-fulfilling prophecies are meaningless. The Old testament gives one and the New testament fulfills it. Sorry, but that proves nothing. Unless of course you can provide absolute proof that both testaments are true. I do not believe in any form of fortune telling at all. There is no way to know what the future holds. People are always looking for prophecies to come true and so will find anything that even comes close to fitting them to show that they happened. In High School this girl told me that when the Challenger exploded it left a 'snake' in the sky and that was fulfilling a prophecy. I had on a Metallica T-shirt that had a snake in the sky and pointed out to her that Metallica came closer to fulfilling that prophecy than a snake of smoke. I can put no faith into prophecies at all since it is a crap shot and people will see them fulfilled if they so desire.
All of your resources about homosexuals have been Christian written articles. Nothing from the mainstream scientific community. It has all been propaganda linking homosexuals to child molester when if one studies the facts they will see that homosexuality and pedophiles are not related at all. I have pointed this out to you in the past, but you just do not wish to see the truth of it. This is a major sign that you do not wish to believe anything beyond the Christians propaganda on this subject.
I have shown you respect. I have yet to lie to you or not be direct. I do not dance around my views and hide when someone comes after me. Id onto play games or act childish. I give consideration to everything I read. It does get old when many say the same thing over and over again without giving any facts about their claims. They go and tell me I ma wrong because I am just being hateful, yet do not give any facts to prove that I am wrong. I am not sure as to why you think I need to provide more facts to prove my views when you do not provide any facts at all to prove your views.
If I were ever to find absolute proof of God I would admit to it. I have no problem with being proven wrong. It has happened here on Blogit and I have been man enough to admit it and say I was wrong. The thing is what you consider proof is not. You have shown that you are confused as to what facts are.
I hold no hatred for Christians. I know many who I do consider good friends. A few are abel to debate with me and most of the time will end up admitting that I have good points and are unable to prove my ideas wrong. You obviously are taking this much more personally than it is. I am not trying to convert anyone, just express my beliefs openly. I enjoy getting a good debate going. There have been several Christians here on Blogit who have earned my respect by being willing to debate with me and present their ideas in a manner that shows respect. If they tell me I have it wrong they go and show me where I went wrong. Most of it does come done to basic faith and I will accept that. Of course these are normally the ones who have not fallen for the general propaganda and are able to see that they need to figure they beliefs out completely on their own.
The Bible teaches many thing that I am very much sure you do not practice. For one thing it teaches not to bare false witness and so one should not defend others who do. You have defended ideas that I have proven to be lies. The only reason you have defended such things is because those leis were created by Christians and I am an atheist. I can not help but wonder how you would have done things if it was another Christian who pointed out those lies to be lies. This post in fact is very much against what the teachings of the Bible would say is the right thing to do.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 20, 2005 at 8:21 PM
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Actually, I think you both are correct!
And thanks, by the way for visiting. Rame, I do agree Kooka is searching, and I should be doing a better job of praying for him. And Gypsy, I also agree with you that I should take the initiative and get beyond this by turning the other cheek and get on with life. Oy but I'm not good at this! I've even written a blog on it, and I still too frequently come up short.
Thanks, guys, for visiting.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on January 20, 2005 at 1:39 PM
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Rame..
What an unbelievable load of crap. Nobody makes someone sin. They choose to. Just like they choose to be angry etc. Personally, if you people want to show respect to each other, you'll start by learning how to "turn the other cheek" and walk away!! Each time one of you uses the other to "make a point" the only point you make is to show that you have chosen to let it affect you. Some needs to be the bigger person...
posted by
RedHeadedGypsy
on January 20, 2005 at 1:34 PM
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Whatever Kooka is doing,
there's no doubt he's provoking you to make you angry so that he can say, "See, you are sinning." Don't let him control you like that. Pray for him that God give him special attention and show hm the light. I think Kooka is truly searching and, by putting up his so called "proof", that he wants his "proof" validly proven wrong. Why else would he keep provoking you?
posted by
RAME
on January 20, 2005 at 1:30 PM
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