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Meringue, I have not been following these matters. Perhaps there are some people about who might be interested now. I think I was feeling a little mad the say I wrote that post. It sounds like I meant it doesn't it?

posted by beachbelle on July 27, 2005 at 4:14 PM | link to this | reply

This is the kind of spirit I have been looking out for....

if there is a group of people interested,I am on!

posted by Meringue on July 24, 2005 at 6:08 AM | link to this | reply

BB, the discussion here is making me think

that perhaps it would be timely to throw out an invitation to the Poets among us to start a critique group, even if only 3-5 of them are interested.  At least those of us - like myself - who are lacking in our Poetry education could look on and get a hint of what goes on in the minds of Poets.  I might just do that and see what happens. Kat-Ray seems interested so with a little luck, the poets could get moving on this.

posted by word.smith on January 1, 2005 at 2:53 PM | link to this | reply

Yes, I see the truth in that Beach. Perhaps other sites are better for serious feedback. I noticed the Blogit review but was disappointed that nobody wanted to attempt critiquing poetry. Thank you for the comment about my poetry.

posted by PoetRaye on January 1, 2005 at 12:50 PM | link to this | reply

Katray

The discussion which followed this post amazed me.

I don't think that to critique one neccessarily has to have proved themselves to be superior. If you see the Blogit review where a few of us critique fiction or creative non-fiction it is just a bunch of peers who have got together. I enjoy your poems because they are evocative.

I think that it is good to open yourself up to criticism but it should be kept in mind that the ad hoc nature of this place may not make it as effective as other forums

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 12:02 PM | link to this | reply

Interesting Beach. I greatly love and appreciate the positive comments on my poetry, (of course, lol) because they spur me on. I realize however that constructive criticism could offer better aid in helping me develop more fully as a writer. I'm going to attempt to find out soon, possibly start a new blog solely for the purpose of inviting honest critiques from anyone kind enough to give their time and effort. These would be works, mostly poetry probably which I feel have a chance of going further than simply filling up a blog. I don't feel qualified to be a critiquer(?) myself as I have never formally studied any type of writing. I'll pay back with clicks. Hopefully I won't hear it's just crap - if it is, tell me why! Thanks for the thought inducing post!

posted by PoetRaye on January 1, 2005 at 11:54 AM | link to this | reply

MerryAnne

Happy New Year to you too. I think that is another thing we have in common - I dabble too

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:42 AM | link to this | reply

ANorseman

I think that some people would like criticism but where poetry is concerned are too fragile to deal with it. Others as void-is says seem to just fill up blogs with banal verse. I tend to try not to read that kind of poetry again. In fact sometimes I wonder if they are being serious.
On the other hand I am aware that I am as a reader quite critical and so I keep quiet.

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:41 AM | link to this | reply

I don't have anything to add here Beach, but I did want to wish you a Happy New Year. I don't pretend that I'm a poet, but I have been dabbling a bit to try a learn a new craft. It's not easy, I don't think I will ever BE a poet, just a dabbler.

posted by MerryAnne on January 1, 2005 at 11:40 AM | link to this | reply

HolyGrail

Thanks - that is noted

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:36 AM | link to this | reply

Ariala did this for me when I had just started writing poetry (although she took out a lot more than a few words because it really needed it!) and I could definitely start to see how it's done...this works because it's your work, improved upon, and much easier to "see" the improvement than just general feedback. In fact, I think I am going to re-post my last poem and invite people to tweak it!

posted by Julia. on January 1, 2005 at 11:35 AM | link to this | reply

Telynor

Clearly the best way into poetry is to read and Neruda is great isn't he?
Thank you

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:35 AM | link to this | reply

Archiew

In all forms of writing and critiquing "how" successfully we express our ideas is the critical factor

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:34 AM | link to this | reply

Cassandra

It sounds like your classes were good. To know what to do but be open to anything is the best way to be. Thank you

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:33 AM | link to this | reply

Ginnieb

I ain't no poet neither

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:32 AM | link to this | reply

Food4thought

I take it that you will take comments or criticism from whoever will give it.

Mine might give my opinion but it would not be from any knowledge

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:31 AM | link to this | reply

Quirky-Alone

When I did scribble poetry here one day I received an email from the blogger Poetjpb with an edited version of my poem.

I had not sought criticism. All she did was remove a few words and it made it so much better. She did this discreetly but I thought it was so interesting that I posted the edited version alongside the original to show others. I learnt so much from that. Admittedly I had more to learn than others.

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:29 AM | link to this | reply

Void-is

Often when I read crap I can see something of quality trying to break out.
I too read almost anything and often spot little gems.

But yes in some respects I am a snob at least in my opinions.

Blogit provides a balance to other aspects of my writing life

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:20 AM | link to this | reply

Beach--EXACTLY!!

So very well said...I prefer to call it "feedback" rather than criticism or critique...but it would be a very foolish writer indeed who did not welcome the chance to improve their craft by listening to those who know what they are talking about. I was like you, very comfortable with the written word in terms of prose, articles, etc. but never dipping my toes into the poetry writer until recently. I know I have a lot to learn, and I welcome feedback on how I can craft better poems. I HAVE asked for that feedback and gotten it, from several of the more experienced poetry writers here. On another note, there were a few that I asked...who completely ignored my request. I thought it was quite rude, actually, but never mind. The feedback I have received is invaluable to me in becoming a better poet. Want to see how I'm doing? Go to Holding You

Happy 2005!

posted by Julia. on January 1, 2005 at 11:19 AM | link to this | reply

ARGUS

I think that is a fair point

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:17 AM | link to this | reply

Wiley Coyote

There are few who claim dominance in that field so at least you are in good company

posted by beachbelle on January 1, 2005 at 11:16 AM | link to this | reply

Beachy

I like to think I`m king of crap poetry and I`m stayin'  there.Happy New Year luv

posted by WileyJohn on January 1, 2005 at 9:47 AM | link to this | reply

Beach, I liked reading your post even though poetry is not my thing.

But it occurs to me, by changing 'poems' or 'poetry'  to 'essays' and/or 'fiction' your point could be applied generically to nearly all  of blogit content. Or am I wrong?

posted by ARGUS on January 1, 2005 at 9:04 AM | link to this | reply

Yikes, Beach! What happened here. Do you need a hand with the dead bodies?

Why, it reminds me of a minefield, through which a few have traversed...
Ooops, did I say something that rhymed with versed?
Well versed or not versed...
This is the question I ask of thee...

I think this is all very fun.

I write poetry, and I think that my 'finished' pieces are masterpieces.
Simple as that. Most other poetry I read sucks, to put it bluntly. Why? Because I am a snob. Poetry is for the initiated. I don't mean those who have taken courses or studied it per se. That does not qualify one to be an initiate. At least an initiate poet.

An inititate poet knows he or she is such. And yet most of the time doubts that they are. They will struggle with their poem. Often, months or years will pass before they will venture to present their work to the public. A lot of the poetry I read on here is piecemeal poetry, written to fill a blog...

I myself have not posted any poem on here that has been written during my time on Blogit. A poem must mature. The poem must say when...not the poet...

Am I arrogant? Probably. And yet I read a lot of poetry on here. Why? Because, even among the worst poets, sometimes the muse will bring out the best in them, and then they really do offer something that leaves me breathless...

So, friends, stop complaining, and start writing...All this is just chit chat. It gets in the way of great poetry...

As for criticism...I think that is best left alone most of the time. You must know what you're saying, and to whom it is that you are saying it. Some people write poetry as a form of self healing and therapy. Those are 'best' left alone as far as serious criticism is concerned. Others are just pushed along by their daily routines, which they versify and so have a 'hobby'...

A few actually write poetry sometimes. And some others will be writing poetry in the future. You can see it in their crap...if you know how to read crap...And then there are the very very very few exceptions that write poetry on a regular basis...those capable of critiqueing them are maybe non existent here on Blogit....

Have a great day and a happy new year...

posted by void-is on January 1, 2005 at 8:24 AM | link to this | reply

Wish our beloved Ariala would leave poor "Roses are red...," alone. ARIALA!!!

posted by cmoe on January 1, 2005 at 7:42 AM | link to this | reply

Wow! It took me longer to read the comments than the post! beachbelle, once again you have written a thought (and comment) provoking post. I too rarely comment on poetry here, even though I do read it. Although I write poetry, I am certainly not qualified to criticise and I like what I like. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Having undertaken a writing course that included poetry (and I'm proud to say got the highest of marks), I've been exposed to and learnt from some of the best poets in Melbourne and probably Australia. From them I've learnt to have an open mind about all different forms of poems and the thoughts that they sprung from. However, as Ariala says, the one "no-no" amongst all of them was to use worn out cliches like "roses are red...etc". Otherwise the only rule was that there is no rule...

posted by Ca88andra on January 1, 2005 at 1:49 AM | link to this | reply

Excellent Advice, Beachbelle!

Criticism, good or bad, must be helpful be valued.  If you like something of mine, tell me its strengths so that I can hone that tool even moreso.  If you don't like something of mine, tell me its weaknesses so that I may either sharpen those skills or lay them aside for another to use who handles them better than I.

In short, criticize, please, but please tell in as much detail as possible why you like or dislike a writer's work.

In my own blogs, I get a lot of agreement or disagreement about what I write, even some really creative comebacks, which I love.  But, what I would value most of all, especially from other writers, is what you thought of the writing itself, whether you agreed witth the words or disagreed with the words.  How did I express those ideas?

posted by archiew on December 31, 2004 at 6:49 PM | link to this | reply

Poetry, alas, is an art form that I'm not very familiar with, but am slowly growing to apprieciate. Right now I am working my way through the poetry of Neruda, which amazes me to no end. I'm glad you posted this entry, it needed to be said.

posted by telynor on December 31, 2004 at 6:39 PM | link to this | reply

HOly cow...52 comments!!

Ain't gots the time to read em all
Maybe when in my life I have a lull
I too suck at poetry
Don't understand it, but that's just me
I did use to write it when I was a teen
But I don't anymore.

I ain't no poet, and I just showed it!

posted by ginnieb on December 31, 2004 at 5:53 PM | link to this | reply

Gheeghee, like I said, it's my preference. I don't claim to be an expert,

and like you and others, I like to write what I write and what makes me happy.  Still, I do try to improve on what I write and try to use fresh language, imagery and words that will engage all the senses.  Whether that's in a tight meter or free verse, that's my goal.

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 5:16 PM | link to this | reply

Again, I disagree. Freeverse is MORE confining to the poet.

No poetic device is used in true freeverse.  This is very constricting to most writers of poetry, as most great poets experiment with multiple forms and devices.  Not often does a truly great work come through in pure freeverse.

 

posted by Gheeghee on December 31, 2004 at 5:13 PM | link to this | reply

Gheeghee, I am trying to tell people to come out of the box. Free verse

allows that. I prefer it too, but my example was to show how you can use fresh language rather than the cliches of "roses are red, violets are blue."  My example was more about fresh language than anything else.

Preferences are not boxes unless we make them such. Thanks!

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 4:58 PM | link to this | reply

Now this is exactly what I mean. Ariala: you have created a little box for

yourself as to what is acceptable or not acceptable poetry: "ONLY FREE VERSE IS POETRY." Sorry. The professor would be much more apt to criticize your opinion than your poem. The more learned a person is about poetry, everyone, the MORE THEY WILL ACCEPT AS POETRY.

posted by Gheeghee on December 31, 2004 at 4:54 PM | link to this | reply

Since I'm the one who said a lot of poetry is crap, and BB wants to know

why or how a poem might be improved, I'll give examples, without using any bloggers work.

Roses are red, violets are blue

sugar is sweet and so are you

Okay, this is a facking cliche.  Any poem that sounds like this automatically gets a thumbs down from me.  Now, THIS IS PURELY MY OPINION.  I don't presume to be an expert.  How would I rewrite this classic?  First of all, I would get rid of the rhyme and not worry about the form and length.  I would also put my own twist on it.

Petals of a rose, dipped in red wine

Violets gathered from a sky-stained river

Sugar-caned kisses with cotton candy sweetness,

You are the taste that lingers still.

There are many problems even with the rewrite.  What would a professor say?  The last two lines need major rewriting, especially the last line! hehe

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 4:28 PM | link to this | reply

Ghee ghee

Yes, as someone ill-qualified that's why I don't speak up

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:21 PM | link to this | reply

of course, beach...I didn't mean that there WEREN'T any rules.

In fact, the best artists/poets/musicians...etc. know the rules better than anyone...they are the ones that know how to most effectively break the rules. This is all beside my point, which is that, most often, individuals that seem to have the strongest opinions as to what poetry IS or ISN'T are the ones that are least qualified to determine such things.

posted by Gheeghee on December 31, 2004 at 4:18 PM | link to this | reply

Gypsyredhead

And I do understand completely that through poetry, the poet is trying to make a connection to readers. This is exactly what I am seeking with my longer -essay-style posts. I find however that this kind of posts connects much more which drives me mad.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:16 PM | link to this | reply

Celeste

I observe the same sort of measures for being tactful when critiquing writing. The last thing I want to do is dismantle someone's confidence. In critiquing them I want them to continue

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:14 PM | link to this | reply

I'm a spelling catastrophe today, please overlook! 

posted by Kelli on December 31, 2004 at 4:13 PM | link to this | reply

Garfield eh Scoop?

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:12 PM | link to this | reply

Gypsyredhead

Please don't think I am prescribing criticism.
I am saying that I would like to hear how and why more experienced poets who say there is a lot of crap, think there is so much crap.

Even without pulling someone apart they can share their opinions and advice. We are all on our journey and at different points.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:11 PM | link to this | reply

Sorry Beach, sometimes (usually all the time) things seem to be what they are not, or at least a portion of what is not.  I didn't mean happiness as it pertains to the actual definition, I mean it more as in the allowance of oneself to gratify an interest or need in something, and that's where poetry came into play for me.  I didn't mean to insinuate that you weren't "happy" except maybe youj felt as such in your inability to grasp it.  If that is so, don't feel bad because no one truly every grasps it, not as protocal.  It's just fun to try and it helps in other ways to!  Thanks! 

posted by Kelli on December 31, 2004 at 4:10 PM | link to this | reply

westwend

yes it is as well to have some fun and limericks allow that. I had fun with my beach poems and that is what matters I guess but then later I was conscious of how bad they are

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:07 PM | link to this | reply

Ghee ghee and kelli

I am not prescribing that rules be followed. Far from it. I think it is a little like when one learns to paint or draw or how it should be. You start out with free drawing then you learn the techniques and from the masters and then you go beyond that taking from it what you wish. It is there where the true self expression comes into its own

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 4:05 PM | link to this | reply

Kelli, It has nothing to do with happiness. I read some comments saying how

poor some of poetry is here and it seemed to me that people could be more specific than that - it seemed negative to say that without giving the benefit of enlightening us. It seemed to be something worth discussing and relates in no way to my happiness. I wish you happiness too.


BTW, I read with great interest your posts appraising various poets here. That was very positive and fascinating

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 3:58 PM | link to this | reply

well, one person's trash is another's treasure.

posted by Gheeghee on December 31, 2004 at 3:54 PM | link to this | reply

It is partly because I have not read enough poetry

that I feel ill-qualified to offer criticism. I do agree with Ariala in that many poems all be they from the heart sound cliched and as if they are all come from one author.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 3:51 PM | link to this | reply

I review a lot of poetry on another site....

One rule of thumb that I have for myself (germinated from painful personal experiences of other's critiques of my own work), is that I only critique if I have at least some good things to say about the poem. And I start and end with positive feedback about 'what worked for me as a reader.' In terms of suggestions, I look at where the author is.  If their level of technical skill is that of a child learning to walk, I comment (very very tactfully) at that level.  I rarely share everything I see.  And especially with someone who appears novice, I ask them to put their poem and my advice away for a week then come back to it, remembering that they are the author of the piece and they need to trust themselves as the poet/author of the poem.

posted by Celeste632 on December 31, 2004 at 3:43 PM | link to this | reply

poetry

is a lot of things
rhyme, meter, description, alliteration
open verse where the descriptiveness prevails over rhyme and meter -- and yet the verses have a rhythm of their own.

what is not poetry
is someone deciding to write two verses in a row that rhyme -- no meter -- no understanding of what it should be.

like

where i went i did not go
but do you know that persons don't know

something like that

limericks are the best to practice with.

there was a young man who knew
just what it was he had to do
he'd looked and he looked
through millions of books
and found all the answers to who

posted by Xeno-x on December 31, 2004 at 3:37 PM | link to this | reply

People that truly study poetry don't put it in a little box!!!!!!!

Anyone that comes along and says something IS OR ISN'T poetry and then tells you that they are studied, experts, etc., chances are they are an idiot, and studied no one's work but their own. Most learned poets are apt to accept various forms over their amateurish counterparts. Otherwise poets like MacBeth, Heaney (Nobel prize winner), Hughes, Plath, and sooooo many others would NEVER be considered.

posted by Gheeghee on December 31, 2004 at 3:36 PM | link to this | reply

Kelli..

I appreciate the support... ah and I get the term now.. sorry, was having a dur moment.As far as the commenting game... we can't all be right all the time. Which is cool with me.

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 3:35 PM | link to this | reply

Gypsy, you haven't learned your commenting lesson yet?  I have!  (well not quite)!  I just didnt' want you to be alone and I see that you are not.  "Contra-indication" or contradiction would be correct?  The first is more of a medical term, my  bad!  sorry!  Thanks!

posted by Kelli on December 31, 2004 at 3:32 PM | link to this | reply

Well let me just go on the record as saying that I know NOTHING about poetry, and anything I post here is not for critiquing because I am in no way serious about it!  Even less so than about my other stuff.

posted by Holy_Grail on December 31, 2004 at 3:30 PM | link to this | reply

Kelli...

We all should comment when we feel moved and that we can disagree or agree so nicely is a good thing. By the way... it's contradiction .. not contrain... can't remember how you spelled it LOL.

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 3:29 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala...

I know.. and Beach.. I saw where you were coming from about helping others who want to better themselves and possibly get published. In those cases I say if they invite criticism or ask for advice go for it. I wasn't trying to say you guys were wrong in your views. I just wanted all sides to be seen.

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 3:26 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala, sometimes it takes a lesson, huh?  lolol  Don't say you didn't warn her!  I'm not trying to give her a hard time, but usually like Gypsy said, and you know, poetry or any type of art stems from a deeper place than just wanting to follow rules and be "hum-drum" if you will.  Happy New Year!  (everyone)

posted by Kelli on December 31, 2004 at 3:24 PM | link to this | reply

I just read GG post pretty good

on understanding more about poetry...especially the last thing she says "To write good poetry, one must become a good reader of poetry"

Walk Through My Open Door... . 

posted by _Symphony_ on December 31, 2004 at 3:21 PM | link to this | reply

BB...

I pretty much agree with Gypsy in that poetry, unlike other forms of writing, is intensly individual and personal.  I would never critique a poem unless I was asked to.  So many poems are just so much raw emotion that have managed to make their way onto paper.  Of course there is some poetry...a lot in fact... that I hate, or dislike intensly.  I just try to remember where I found it so that I don't read it again.  Poetry is one of those things that is different for different people.  Unlike a story for example.  When someone writes a story they want people to read it, they want it to be easily assimilated and probably appreciate feedback, critical or otherwise.  When many people write poems they do so for purley theraputical reasons.  Others write poems to share themselves with others, still others write poems because they love poetry and are students of the genre.  The later would probably appreciate constructive critisism while the others would take it as a personal assault.  hmmm...I guess thats all i wanted to say.  happy new year!

posted by A_Norseman on December 31, 2004 at 3:20 PM | link to this | reply

Beachy, Kelli and Gypsy, and this is exactly why I don't offer my

criticisms. 

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 3:19 PM | link to this | reply

gypsy (an Beach of course) I wasn't going to comment on this post because it's a contraindication in itself.  Claiming that you are uneducated in poetry and then proceeding to make a judgment that is negative, nonetheless, is a contraindication and also a revelation of how much you really know about poetry and the people that write that poetry.  What if the childish things that you point out are done purposefully?  How do you decide?  I agree with Gypsy and sympathize with not only her but anyone who is unhappy enough to decide to make something like the definition of poetry an issue at all.  Be happy.

posted by Kelli on December 31, 2004 at 3:16 PM | link to this | reply

I agree gypsyredhead33

my poems too.... come from the dark hours that corrupt me....it means something to me if nothing at all!

posted by _Symphony_ on December 31, 2004 at 3:12 PM | link to this | reply

I'm going to say something many may not agree with but here goes...

Just because you study how something should be done according to people who make these rules up, doesn't make them or you right. Some of the best artists in the world painted with a style all their own. Later, people came along and made up a name for that style so other's could conform. Conformity... think about that. I could write five lines that have no style, form, rhythm, and claim it's poetry. Why? Because that's what I choose to call it. Maybe others wouldn't agree, maybe they wouldn't like it, but that's what I say it is. I almost didn't post any of my poetry. Alot of it comes from an area so dark, deep and sacred I won't ever share it with anyone. The things I do, I'd like to think people would either like or keep their thoughts to theirselves. I'm not posting it with the hope of writing in the style of Poe. I'm not trying to get paid to write. Well, blogit paid.. but lets be real, that's not going to make me millions. I'm just wanting to share some of me with you. And if I get slapped down for that with "constructive criticism" you can guarantee all I'm going to see is the word "criticism". And then my blog will go away. (You should know this isn't me here.. this is me projecting a sensitive poet and how they might feel) I'd hate to see some hearts and minds close down simply because we think they should write "proper poetry".

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 3:05 PM | link to this | reply

hehehehe Ariala ...I don't mind you disagreeing with me

each their own I guess

posted by _Symphony_ on December 31, 2004 at 2:55 PM | link to this | reply

I love Symphony to death, but I have to disagree with her. Even though

something is from the heart, if it's written to sound like every other poem before it, it does nothing to touch me on any level. 

Beachbelle, yes, I would agree that you are among the harshest of critics, and I say that with respect, but trust me, if I started on poetry, I would make you look like an angel.  I would definitely have to be careful with my delivery.  Still, like I said, I tried this before and it was not accepted with open arms.  However, I would only offer my review on those that ask...I don't have the guts to tell someone that they need to ditch the whole poem and start over.  Usually that's what's necessary though.  Truly, sometimes there are only three good words in a whole poem of 50 and everything else is crap.  What can I say, very little poetry impresses me.  I do compliment poets here even though I'm not completely impressed with their whole poems, but there is a lot of potential...and I try to remain positive.

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 2:49 PM | link to this | reply

Symphony

There is no denying the power of poetry written from the heart. I guess what we like depends on how much we connect with the soul of the person.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 2:08 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala. Thank you. Yes in part you did get me thinking about this....

But I have to disagree with you in some respects. Although some are simply expressing themselves through poetry and there is no harm in that, I think that quite a number of people are seeking useful criticism so that they can develop their work even if they have no plans to publish. I really do believe this. Developing one's writing is a continuing source of pleasure and the reason many keep at it.

I think it is really a matter of how the criticism is delivered. I would never say someone's work is crap. I would suggest where it might be improved and yes sometimes the list of criticisms is long.


Occasionally, I go through people's prose blogs and make marks and cuts and either post it as a comment or through email so that it does not embarrass them. Sometimes I am asked to do this. Sometimes not.
I do so because I can see where a small adjustment can make a world of difference. Giving time to make criticism of others is a sign of hope that they can develop or polish their work.

In some cases I am very concerned about saying a thing because my suggestions mean going almost right back to the drawing board. I have consistently been surprised and delighted at how much people appreciate it and then thrilled to see them improve,

The Blogit Review has also been a positive experience and I am probably known as one of the harsher critics there but again people really seem to get a lot out of it and it only involves 15 to 30 mins for each review.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 2:06 PM | link to this | reply

I love poetry

I love writing it and reading it..one of the first things I did here....anyway...everybody expresses themselves through poetry its like a key to their soul...I have not seen any bad poetry for me to tell them that!... as most poetry I have read has been very deep and coming form the heart

posted by _Symphony_ on December 31, 2004 at 2:01 PM | link to this | reply

Since I think you were referring to me here and what I said about poetry,

I want to say that the reason I don't do what you're asking is because people here, for the most part, DO NOT want to hear the absolute truth of why their poetry is crap.  In fact, a long time ago I tried to do just that and the response was hurt feelings or "I'm just here to express myself." 

I find that most people who write poetry are not in it for the sake of getting published, but rather for self-expression.  Quirky has asked my personal opinion before and I gave it to her WITH helpful hints on improving it.  I think she appreciated it.  No one else has asked my opinion and I would rather they not ask unless they can handle unadulterated truth.

Plus, I do post crap poetry as well at times, and for me to judge or criticize other people's poetry may seem a bit harsh and unfair.  If someone is interested in my honest opinion on their poetry, I WILL give it and will say what I think is wrong with it or how it will improve.  Still, I'm not expert.

posted by Ariala on December 31, 2004 at 1:40 PM | link to this | reply

I agree with food4thought

to me poetry is like oil painting, or sculpting, or most art, some will like it others could care less, of course that is coming from a guy who gets most of his art appreciation from Garfield

posted by scoop on December 31, 2004 at 1:36 PM | link to this | reply

attention...

spell check in line 4, should be stilted, sorry.

posted by food4thought on December 31, 2004 at 1:35 PM | link to this | reply

Poetry...

One man's poetry is another's doggerel.  Personally I think poetry should be fun.  It is the jazz of writing, allowing us to paint pictures and weave things together that would not "normally" be together.  I was reading a textbook that was explaining all the different type of poetry and it seemed so stiltet, so forced.  Quatrains, rhyme schemes, beat counts, I am not that disciplined when it comes to rhyming and timing.  If someone likes something, that is cool.  If they don't perhaps I'm the fool.  Feel free to comment on my scribbles anytime, I'll send you the answer in pantomime.  One thing about poetry that's quite treachorous is once you start it becomes infectous. 

posted by food4thought on December 31, 2004 at 1:31 PM | link to this | reply

Only one word for this post, Beach: Bravo!

I read only a little poetry here, a few favorites, and do make a few comments, saying truthfully if I enjoyed it or if I did not. I don't critique it at all, as like you, I am undeveloped and unschooled in this area. To me, just having a degree which adds to writing does not make me a judge of poetry, which for me was always a difficult if not impossible genre to master. I think many who write poetry would like an honest critique of their works, but it is difficult for those that have not really mastered it to give this.

You are nothing if not ethical at all times.

posted by KlaraRoberts on December 31, 2004 at 1:21 PM | link to this | reply

Gypsyredhead

I too would not "tell" someone to change but I would like to see those who have experience in these matters "showing" people new ways to look at their work and then they have the opportunity to explore new directions. I think one needs some criticism to be able to develop. Beyond that is up to the individual.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 1:16 PM | link to this | reply

Rachelanna

Yes some of us "know" our poetry is bad - lol. But often my taste in these matters is so out of sync with public opinion

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 1:13 PM | link to this | reply

Word.smith

I wish the poets would do the same too. It takes so little time but adds so much.

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 1:09 PM | link to this | reply

Jeff and others

I sometimes say when I like stuff but when I don't that's when I am painfully aware of how little I know. I used to preface it by saying "I know very little about poetry but.....". Also because I don't know much about it I am concerned my advice would not be helpful and may make things worse ...........

posted by beachbelle on December 31, 2004 at 1:08 PM | link to this | reply

Oh and I meant to say.. I agree.. we can't just say that sucks and not why!

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 1:01 PM | link to this | reply

Beach..

Frankly,, poetry is so much a venting, soul searching, this is my feelings sort of thing.. that I'd never tell someone what they wrote was crap. Even if it's sugary, flowery, corny... I write that sometimes. Fluff I love you stuff. I can't see telling someone in that dept. to change the way they write. I would just suggest maybe some of them use spell check and make sure the words they are using actually mean what they are using them for.

posted by RedHeadedGypsy on December 31, 2004 at 1:01 PM | link to this | reply

Yup...

A generic "this is bad" isn't helpful.

If someone told me my poetry was bad, I'd have to laugh and agree.  But, it serves a purpose and I never claimed it was good in the first place!

posted by RachelAnna on December 31, 2004 at 12:56 PM | link to this | reply

One of the things I hoped to see happen

when we got the citique gourp started was one for Poetry. Unfortunately that has not happened. If I were writing this post, what you wrote is almost exactly what I would have written - minus the parts about your skills, of course. I do read in the Poetry section from time to time, but do not usually comment because I know next to nothing about it.  I hope you are taken up on this challenge.

posted by word.smith on December 31, 2004 at 12:55 PM | link to this | reply

I agree with you up to a point

but I can also see value in even someone who is untrained saying whether or not they like something.

posted by jollyjeff on December 31, 2004 at 12:52 PM | link to this | reply