Go to Sannhetseeker
- Add a comment
- Go to Spiritual Immaturity Keeps Many From Getting Closer to God - And That's Ok
Cent
That is an awesome quote…I enjoyed reading it. 
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 19, 2004 at 12:56 PM
| link to this | reply
justAcarpenter,
"Cent, excellent additions, as for the more advanced part, I agree I should have used the term “slightly more advanced”."
Haha! Yes, I can agree with "slightly more advanced". Since the industrial revolution and the introduction of the 40 hour work week and the advances in medicine and the health and longevity these have produced I do think that the "common" man and woman have more time to be able to pursue other interests, rather than having to and putting all their time toward just surviving and raising their families, interests in the spiritual as well as the more worldly pursuits, at least in those countries and societies where the middle class has grown and prospered. This leisure time has resulted in many "lay" people having the time to indulge their intellectual curiousity in the spiritual world. So you are correct in saying that we are "more" advanced in this way justAcarpenter, I do feel though that "slightly" more advanced is a more accurate a description. 
Cent
posted by
Cent
on November 18, 2004 at 9:32 PM
| link to this | reply
posted by
Tremac
on November 18, 2004 at 9:26 PM
| link to this | reply
Sannhet, justAcarpenter, and all
Since we are on this subject and talking of parables, and the way they are used as a teaching tool by the "masters" for those caught in the worldly, I thought you all might enjoy this one from the Buddha.
Cent
"And the Blessed One thought:
"I have taught the truth which is excellent in the beginning,
excellent in the middle, and excellent in the end;
it is glorious in its spirit and glorious in its letter.
But simple as it is, the people cannot understand it.
I must speak to them in their own language.
I must adapt my thoughts to their thoughts.
They are like unto children, and love to hear tales.
Therefore, I will tell them stories to explain the glory of the Dharma.
If they cannot grasp the truth in the abstract arguments by which I have reached it,
they may nevertheless come to understand it, if it is illustrated in parables." "
posted by
Cent
on November 18, 2004 at 9:14 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet and Cent
sannhet, after thinking about it I have to agree with your conclusion.
Cent, excellent additions, as for the more advanced part, I agree I should have used the term “slightly more advanced”.
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 18, 2004 at 10:32 AM
| link to this | reply
Cent and JustA -
Two great posts. Cent, I was going to do what you did when I read JustA comment. But you did it beautifully. And JustA, some great points, though I am still not convinced that all of the Apostles truly understood Yeshua/Jesus' message.
posted by
sannhet
on November 18, 2004 at 6:16 AM
| link to this | reply
justAcarpenter
"Sometimes, what one sees can only be explained from the worldly perspective…or rather need to be explained from that perspective…stepping stones must be created for those that follow…(evolution)."
Yes, exactly so. Most of us are immersed in the worldly. We try to survive the daily onslaught of the world, and have so little time to contemplate our navels in pursuit of the spiritual. We need to have explanations that fit our worldly view, our corporal plane of existence. Most of us aren't holy men, but neither are we fools without a brain of our own nor without the ability to interpret the holy books for ourselves if we had the time to do so. This is why we "pay" the religious leaders to do these things for us. (The pay comes in many different forms throughout the world and different religions. Here the monks walk about every morning collecting their "alms" from the faithful, mostly as foodstuffs prepared by the women each morning just for this, and placed outside each household for the monks to gather individually as they make their rounds. They live in the Wat/temple, and receive new clothing and goods needed for the year a couple of times a year during certain celebrations and festivals.)
"Those perceiving a world in heavy conflict can only understand answers that explain, lessen or solve that conflict (at their level)."
Very true, and not only do they understand in this way, but also they "seek" to understand in this way because it is the easiest way for them to understand. It's what they know, what they can relate to. Most want their religion to give them the answers to their worldly problems.
"Some Prophets (including those outside of the Bible) did write very worldly things, but I am beginning to see that they saw above their own words, simply by the way they constructed their writings."
Yes, the parables are a prime example of this, and are found in all religions. Simple stories understandable by the masses which have much deeper meaning once one puts a bit of thought into them.
"This is even more understandable when one considers that their works were judged by those that led the masses…falling short in this area (based on worldly standards) was often punishable by death. Jesus is a prime example of what mankind does when it is confronted with to much Truth at one time. Though his words are highly prized today (present understanding by the "worldly" is more advanced)…during his time, these words were considered to be a threat…by the “worldly”. I guess what I am saying is that the threat of death (for most…excluding Jesus) is enough to cause one to speak in worldly metaphors."
Yeah, sort of a code really to throw off the ire of the "leaders" of the realm. The trurth hurts as they say. When you "hurt" the important and powerful and are seen as a threat you get "hurt" back. Although I do disagree somewhat that the "worldly" are much more advanced than they were two thousand years ago. Advanced in what way? Spiritually? I think that may be an arguable point really.
"Though the Prophets could see at a Godly level…they had to explain it at the Worldly one…as best they could"
It was the only way they could be understood by the masses they preached to really, and still is to this day really. Buddha had the same problems for the most part himself, same as his western "peers".
Good post justAcarpenter. Good points.
Cent
posted by
Cent
on November 18, 2004 at 12:07 AM
| link to this | reply
Just a few more thoughts…
Sometimes, what one sees can only be explained from the worldly perspective…or rather need to be explained from that perspective…stepping stones must be created for those that follow…(evolution).
Those perceiving a world in heavy conflict can only understand answers that explain, lessen or solve that conflict (at their level). Some Prophets (including those outside of the Bible) did write very worldly things, but I am beginning to see that they saw above their own words, simply by the way they constructed their writings. This is even more understandable when one considers that their works were judged by those that led the masses…falling short in this area (based on worldly standards) was often punishable by death. Jesus is a prime example of what mankind does when it is confronted with to much Truth at one time. Though his words are highly prized today (present understanding by the "worldly" is more advanced)…during his time, these words were considered to be a threat…by the “worldly”. I guess what I am saying is that the threat of death (for most…excluding Jesus) is enough to cause one to speak in worldly metaphors.
Though the Prophets could see at a Godly level…they had to explain it at the Worldly one…as best they could…
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 17, 2004 at 10:57 PM
| link to this | reply
Cent -
Again I agree. Thanks for the kind words, and I look forward to you stopping by and commenting in the future.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 8:15 PM
| link to this | reply
Sannhet
Those who study other religions can see that there are more than one way to spiritual enlightenment. I've been living in a land for a few years now which is 98% Buddhist. It gives one another viewpoint, another perspective. The Bible isn't the only place to find the words of God, nor the only place to find true wisdom, and Jesus is not God's only prophet. To truly understand the word of God shouldn't one listen to and read the words of all his prophets?
Nice blog here Sannhet. I'll be back to read and comment on occasion. Thanks.
Cent
posted by
Cent
on November 17, 2004 at 8:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Cent -
I agree with you. I spent a couple of years studying Buddhist traditions and feel a real kinship with the Buddhist approach. And it certainly makes sense that if you don't reach spiritual maturity in this lifehood, you will in others.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 8:00 PM
| link to this | reply
Pappy -
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 7:59 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet
This is one of the reasons I am inclined to go with the Buddhist/Hindu beliefs in reincarnation. I find it hard to believe any one soul can gain spiritual maturity in one mere lifetime. Yes, there are some spiritual "geniuses" that could probably do it, but for most of mankind it would be a learning process over much time. It's like a school for the spirit, this reincarnation process. You learn more each time around. It does seem there are "old" souls and "young" souls. The prophets being "older" souls sent to help along those who are ready to "graduate" to the next levels. It would just seem to make more sense doing it this way, rather than the fire and brimstone "one life to live, get it right or go to hell" christian philosophy. All roads lead to God once you learn to read the road signs. And why would God be so harsh on the "immature" souls, without giving them a chance to learn all the lessons in all the grades and classes? I think this Buddhist meditation says it well. The lessons are taught and learned, some learn quicker than others, some not at all.
"Let go of the past,
let go of the future,
let go of the present,
and cross over to the farther shore of existence.
With mind wholly liberated,
you shall come no more to birth and death."
The Buddha
posted by
Cent
on November 17, 2004 at 7:55 PM
| link to this | reply
seeker
A good post on a large but subtle subject. Maturity comes in a series of steps, of lessons learned that enable the seeker to formulate new questions. Keep it up.
posted by
pappy
on November 17, 2004 at 7:17 PM
| link to this | reply
JustA -
I got what you are trying to say. I think your writing is just fine. Though I don't know that I agree that all of the Apostles were writing at a high level. Some, in my opinion, were writing at a very "wordly" level. Hence, the confusion they felt and the confusion we feel when we read some of their works.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 7:15 PM
| link to this | reply
Westwend -
Good point.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 7:13 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet
I did it again…I failed to write clearly…below when I said, “This reminds me of…” I was referring to the condition created by the topic that we are discussing. “This observed condition reminds me of…”
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 17, 2004 at 4:17 PM
| link to this | reply
thank you justa
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 17, 2004 at 4:02 PM
| link to this | reply
Good points westwind
I really like the second comment.
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 17, 2004 at 3:59 PM
| link to this | reply
god's judgement
there is no such thing
there is only a judging of our works and a refining.
no condemnation.
people are going to be in for a pleasant surprise
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 17, 2004 at 3:56 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet
This reminds me of being told to write at an eighth grade level or most people will not understand my points. By comparison the Prophets where writing at a highly advanced level, but being read by eighth graders.
posted by
justAcarpenter
on November 17, 2004 at 3:55 PM
| link to this | reply
what is worldly
is what drives our worldly passions
what we do all the time
there is another world to which we must tune.
it leads us above the worldly.
i can't call it "of god" -- I can call it "the other".
I think somewhere out there something calls -- like a radio station at night -- we travel and listen to one station and after awhile another bleeds through -- that's a call -- we then see if we can attune to that station -- those of us who want to -- some of us are better receptors than others.
we get away from the traditional concept of "god" and we free ourselves and open our selves more to that "other".
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 17, 2004 at 3:55 PM
| link to this | reply
Jackie O
Thanks for the comments.
posted by
sannhet
on November 17, 2004 at 3:48 PM
| link to this | reply
Gods harsh judgement is because of His righteousness
His mercy and love is demonstrated in His provision of escape from this judgement.
good post
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 17, 2004 at 2:40 PM
| link to this | reply