Go to God as The Universe as an Organism
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You are right westwind
What the Bible really says and what people are taught that it says. Are two completely different things.
posted by
justAcarpenter
on August 9, 2004 at 5:19 PM
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you guys are all good
what I've read about Yahveh --- The Bible Review and Bibilcal Archaeology Review have had some interesting articles.
One article's subject is certain ancient artifacts predating Israel in Palestine, or the Levant, which probably is a better term for that land. The artifacts have a drawing of figures. One is labelled as Yahveh, which was one of several gods at the time, and alongside him is his consort. Yahveh then was a tribal god in a pantheon.
Yet the name has endured. I've spoken on YHVH, or the Tetragrammaton in this very blog, in the first installment or so. Personally I am fascinated that this name, which does not contain vowels and is not pronounced, persists. If you read my first few posts here, that will avoid my having to go to the trouble of explaining it all again.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 6, 2004 at 6:57 AM
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Evangaline, you are so right
Jesus is by no means original. There are many, many stories of the Ever-Dying and Reborn God which predate Jesus, and most of the Christian holidays were adapted from pagan sources anyway. Which is not to say that Jesus (whoever he was, and if he was) didn't have things of value to say: he did, and very much so, but so much has been lost in the fundamentalist dogma that it's hard to separate now.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 11:04 PM
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The Sacred Whore
No, I don't believe it is a contradiction. I see sex as sacred, but it can be so without being attached to modern ideas of what "monogamy" is -- which is not true monogamy, anyway. You can love someone in the moment, wish them pleasure, wish them healing, as you're making love to them; sex can be a truly healing act whether you're "together" with someone or not. I think I've read of several scientific studies which back that: sex is good for general health and self-esteem, of course you have to do it responsibly and safely.
My philosophy: There is already more than enough pain to go around, let's increase the pleasure. That's the Sacred Whore, to me. And it has a grand tradition as well.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 11:02 PM
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Tapsel-T, I agree with you to a point
but I don't accept Yahweh as "God." I'll expand on that in a future post. Of course, as humans, we can't really understand the Divine, She's so much bigger than we are. That's exactly why I don't believe we should take the Bible so seriously. I've had some incredible experiences which I'll try to put into words someday; they've left me convinced that the Divine, God if you will (again, for me, not Yahweh), cannot be expresed but is larger and more encompassing and stranger and more forgiving than any of us could comprehend. Hard to put into words. In my tradition, God is not He, nor She, but both and beyond; we call Her She only because of the baggage attached to "He" and the failure of the English language to have a truly androgynous way of describing Her. Hope that makes sense?
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 10:58 PM
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Hi Ariala, I started a new Blog
I've expounded some (very basic) beliefs there. "Ask a Witch!" I am a Feri initiate, not that that probably means anything to you, nor should it, LOL. But feel free to ask me any questions.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 10:53 PM
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Flawed text
I think it is dangerous to take the Bible literally. Why not accept the Iliad at face value? The Bible is very metaphoric and its message lies in appreciating its use of allegory and metaphor. It's rooted in Greek mythology, for one, and we can trace the antecedents of certain Bible stories back to other sources.
posted by
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
on August 5, 2004 at 9:23 PM
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Cella, who do you worship now, if anyone? Ishtar? Osiris? The goddess?
I forgot you were a witch...expound on what you believe or what segment of witchcraft you follow. I did read your About Me page...a sacred whore? Is that not a contradiction? 
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 8:42 PM
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Cella - It may not be that God tells lies.....
It might just be that as fallible human beings, we just do not understand his Truths.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2004 at 8:40 PM
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Man-boy, you are right
It is a collection of myths... some of it very good advice on how to live... some of it very bad.
There are way too many contradictions in the Bible to believe it is inerrant in any way. Too much censored out. Too much ugliness. Believe it or not I once was Christian... til I read the Bible and knew I didn't want to align myself with a god like Yahweh.
No offense to Christians. I have no quarrel with Christ, actually.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 8:33 PM
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Thanks
I really appreciate it when I can debate this kind of stuff with someone cool and rational...
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 8:30 PM
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Cella, I had you confused for another blogger, but I can't recall her
name. She's actually a Christian. So sorry for the confusion. LOL And yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 8:11 PM
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Ariala,
With all due respect, to say Yahweh "does not lie" when he clearly did, is not an answer.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
personally I don't care what religion you are so long as you are for the good and blessing of all humankind, and it seems to me you are.
Witchy blessings,
Bella
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 8:05 PM
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right man_boy
at least i think you're right
the Bible begins as metaphor and ends as metaphor
and in between, there is a lot of hashing out what religion for these people is all about.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 5, 2004 at 5:18 PM
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the tree is the law -- law defines evil, when one knows evil, one knows its opposite which is good
the death is the understanding of the law -- understanding that there is now a burden. burdens help us to die.
being as gods -- the word is plural there -- the first word for god in Genesis is Elohim, the plural of Eloah -- but being as gods -- lawmakers and law enforcers are as gods.
so both the LORD god, who walked the garden, and the serpent were right -- people began that slow death and they still lived.
posted by
Xeno-x
on August 5, 2004 at 5:17 PM
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The whole point seems to be that the word
is just a book. Every thing in the bible has precedence in ancient religions from the beginning of time. Believe it or don't. It is certainly not a literal historical writ. It is allegorical and metaphorical and fully open to interpretation. There is no proof that the bible is the inerrant word of God. Some believe it is. That is fine. One finds comfort and meaning where they will. If you live for literal death the point is missed. The death and rebirth is I believe, entirely of the spirit. Live now in the kingdom of God. Christ is being eternally born anew in each and every one of us. Using the bible itself to prove it's validity is invalid methodology.
posted by
man-boy
on August 5, 2004 at 5:13 PM
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Cella, God does not lie. Lying is a sin and God is without sin.
The Bible calls Lucifer or Satan the Father of lies. The Bible also teaches to take "precept upon precept. Here a little, there a little." In other words, don't base your whole understanding of a subject on one verse.
Once Adam and Eve sinned by disobeying God, God would not allow them to live forever as sinful beings in the garden.
"Spiritual awakening" in sinful thinking is far from a good thing.
I guess we need to agree to disagree, like you said.
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 5:08 PM
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Tapsel T I sent you an email.....please email me back at
Princesssduhhh@aol.com the adress i gave blogit is one I never check
posted by
PrincessDani
on August 5, 2004 at 5:08 PM
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I've heard this argument before
But the words seem pretty clear and literal to me. Nowhere does it say "spiritual death," it just says "death." And when they've eaten the apple it says their eyes were opened. How is that a spiritual death? You could argue it's loss of innocence, but that's spiritual growth, not spiritual death.
Genesis 2:15:
15Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
Genesis 3:4:
4Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Genesis 3:22:
22Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Exactly what the Serpent said would happen. Yahweh admits it in his own words. And if they weren't mortal already (therefore, doomed to die someday), why prevent them from becoming immortal? What would be the need?
Of course I guess we'll have to agree to disagree... but the simplest, most obvious interpretation is clearly that Yahweh was the liar, not the Serpent.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 5:04 PM
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PrincessDani - Did anyone help you with the posting of pics?
I finally figured out how to do it on my computer but it is very detailed and I am not sure how to explain it to someone else. If, no one else helps you, send me an e-mail and I will try to describe what to do and send back. Good Luck
posted by
TAPS.
on August 5, 2004 at 5:02 PM
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Cella, wow, if I believed that I'd be a Satan worshipper. Eating of the
fruit caused them to become mortal. Two deaths began in them that day...the physical death and the spiritual death. God didn't describe to them in detail how it all worked. He simply told them they would die. As soon as they sinned, they noticed their nakedness. If you notice, soon afterwards they were clothed. A sacrifice had to be made for sin, and after it was made, I imagine they used the fur of the animal to cover themselves. This is, of course, after the fig leaf incident.
As for becoming like gods, they now knew good from evil. They immediately started blaming someone. Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent and God for putting it in the garden. They were driven out of the garden where the Tree of Life existed. Without it, and because of the sin and disobedience, they eventually died. Without the messiah's death on the cross, the event they were looking forward to, they (as all of us) would die the second death - spiritual death which is eternal.
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 4:28 PM
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Ariala,
Satan (if it is Satan, the Bible doesn't say so, I don't think?) didn't lie. Yahweh did. They ate of the tree of good & evil and did not die, although Yahweh said they would.
Then Yahweh says that he must prevent them from eating of the tree of life so they "don't become as us and have eternal life" (or words to that effect).
So clearly they were already mortal. And they did not die on the day they ate the fruit, as Yahweh said they would. So the Serpent told the truth and Yahweh lied.
posted by
Cella
on August 5, 2004 at 4:11 PM
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Sorry off the subject....I need help, ive been trying for two hours to figure out how to post my pics....Paaaleeeeze help me someone
posted by
PrincessDani
on August 5, 2004 at 4:01 PM
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Rev. 21, rather
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 3:58 PM
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I disagree:
- You say, the Bible says we are gods. - Satan told Eve that when she eats from the tree "Ye shall be as gods." (Genesis 3:4) It's in the Bible alright, but it's recorded as the second lie told by Satan. The first one was "Ye shall not surely die." So today, people teach that no one dies and that everyone is a god.
- "the bible says we are sin free" -- I John states clearly that anyone who says they are without sin is a liar. Once again, lies...more lies from Satan, the Father of Lies.
- Jesus said in Matthew that He is going to Heaven to prepare a place and will come back and take us there. He says there are many mansions where he is going. If Heaven were just a state of being or a realm, Jesus wouldn't have been literal. Heaven is very real. Revelations 22 describes it in detail.
posted by
Ariala
on August 5, 2004 at 12:54 PM
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